Billy Joel: And So It Goes, From the Inside, Part 2

Documentary First, Episode 257. Christian Taylor talks with Steve Cohen, Billy Joel's creative director and an executive producer of the HBO documentary Billy Joel: And So It Goes, in the second of two parts. 48 minutes. Released July 24, 2025.

Listen: Apple Podcasts, Spotify and other apps
Watch: YouTube
Read: Full transcript

What does it take to last 50 years beside Billy Joel?

Steve Cohen never finished high school. He was a theater kid in Canoga Park, California, who cut school to sneak into Hollywood studios and learned sound and lights at the Starwood, a club on Santa Monica Boulevard. At 20 he started a lighting company and cold-called every manager listed in the back of Billboard. The same day he landed Billy Joel, his partner landed Earth, Wind & Fire. They had one lighting system and two clients.

In Episode 257 of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor turns the spotlight on Steve himself, picking up where Part 1 left off. Steve admits Piano Man wasn't his kind of music. Then, at his first rehearsal, the band played "The Ballad of Billy the Kid," and he heard something that sounded like a Western movie mixed with a rock and roll record. He went out on the road lighting that story, and he never left.

Steve talks about what it takes to last half a century in a creative partnership, from work ethic to knowing when to leave the room. He explains why the film's credits list all 56 musicians who've played with Billy, why Billy wears a jacket on stage, and how the music was remixed for the film. And he shares what the whole project taught him: "We're put on this earth to be of service." As he says of his own part in it, "This is not my movie."

In this episode, you'll learn

• How a theater kid from Canoga Park learned to paint music with light
• How cold calls from a Billboard list led to Billy Joel in 1974
• What "The Ballad of Billy the Kid" taught Steve about lighting a story
• What it takes to last 50 years in a creative partnership
• Why the film's credits list all 56 musicians who played with Billy Joel
• How Steve went from directing early music videos to producing documentaries
• Why Billy Joel wears a jacket on stage
• How the music was remixed in 5.1 for the film
• How the archive team found footage Steve didn't know existed
• Who the "Mean Brothers" were

Questions and answers

How did Steve Cohen start working with Billy Joel?

In 1974, Steve Cohen and a couple of partners started a lighting company and cold-called every manager listed at the back of Billboard magazine. Steve landed Billy Joel the same day a partner landed Earth, Wind & Fire, with one lighting system between them. He rented gear, went to rehearsals, and has worked with Billy Joel ever since, for more than 50 years.

How do you last 50 years in a creative partnership?

Steve Cohen credits a work ethic that matches Billy Joel's, knowing when to keep quiet, never getting too full of himself and knowing when to leave the room. He also kept a career of his own, designing for other artists, which he says Billy enjoyed hearing about. Because he isn't a player in the band, his role could grow over time, and Billy encouraged it.

Why does Billy Joel wear a jacket on stage?

According to Steve Cohen, Billy Joel started wearing a suit coat and tie on stage because the audience had paid money to see him, and he wanted to show them a little respect. It also gave him a simple style that never had to chase trends. Steve says it reflects Billy's belief that you show up and do the work, which Steve calls true humility: "an accurate assessment of your place in the world."

Why do the credits of Billy Joel: And So It Goes list 56 musicians?

Steve Cohen says that when the team discussed how to credit the band, he insisted they list every musician who has played with Billy Joel. That's 56 names at the end of the film, roughly in chronological order. He says musicians often have to move on in order to grow, and each one brought a different color to the music.

How was the music remixed for Billy Joel: And So It Goes?

Steve Cohen says the team brought in an engineer who had worked with producer Phil Ramone on Billy's records and on their later Dolby Atmos re-releases. He remixed the tracks in true 5.1 for the film and created instrumentals by stripping out Billy's vocals. A few new score pieces reworked songs like "Laura," "Rosalinda's Eyes" and "Souvenir" for the film's family history section.

How long did it take to make Billy Joel: And So It Goes?

About four years, Steve Cohen says. He credits HBO for funding the film properly, and the archive team for digging through boxes of material. In the process they found footage Steve didn't know had been shot, including a black-and-white club concert on Long Island he thought held three songs and turned out to hold about 12.

What documentaries does Steve Cohen recommend?

Steve Cohen names four: The Kid Stays in the Picture, about producer Robert Evans; the HBO film Sinatra: All or Nothing at All, which he loves for having no talking heads on screen; Barry Avrich's David Foster: Off the Record; and, at the top of his list, Susan Lacy's Leonard Bernstein: Reaching for the Note.

Chapters

Times match the YouTube video.

• 0:00 From Canoga Park to the Starwood
• 4:10 Cold-Calling Billy Joel's Manager
• 8:51 How Do You Last 50 Years in a Band?
• 13:15 From Music Videos to Last Play at Shea
• 18:20 Hoping for One More Night at the Garden
• 25:03 Why He Wears a Jacket on Stage
• 28:59 Editors, Sound and a 5.1 Remix
• 33:15 We're Put on This Earth to Be of Service
• 37:27 The Archival Team and the Mean Brothers
• 44:32 The Kid Stays in the Picture and More

Watch the film

Billy Joel: And So It Goes streams on HBO Max. Full credits are on IMDb.

DocuView Deja View picks: Steve recommends The Kid Stays in the Picture (2002), Nanette Burstein and Brett Morgen's film about Hollywood producer Robert Evans; Sinatra: All or Nothing at All (2015), Alex Gibney's HBO portrait of Frank Sinatra; David Foster: Off the Record (2019), Barry Avrich's film about the music producer; and, as his number one, Leonard Bernstein: Reaching for the Note (1998), Susan Lacy's American Masters film. See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

About the guest

Steve Cohen is an Emmy Award-winning production designer, lighting and video designer-director, and film and television producer. Raised in Canoga Park, California, he has worked with Billy Joel since 1974 and is his creative director. Over five decades he has designed, produced and directed tours and events for Elton John, the Eagles, Mariah Carey, Justin Timberlake, *NSYNC, Britney Spears, Lenny Kravitz, Reba McEntire, Paul Simon and many others, and he directed Star Wars in Concert for George Lucas. He produced The Last Play at Shea (2008) and Billy Joel's Madison Square Garden documentaries, and produced and designed the CBS special Billy Joel: The 100th, Live at Madison Square Garden, which won Emmys for lighting design, sound mixing and technical direction. He is an executive producer of Billy Joel: And So It Goes (HBO, 2025).

Related conversations

Start with Steve Cohen, Part 1, on how the film got Billy Joel to open up. The film's directors talk about making it in their own episodes: Susan Lacy, the creator of PBS American Masters, and Jessica Levin.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Follow the show | Support on Patreon

This episode is sponsored by Artillery Sports. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order at artillerysports.com.

Full transcript

This transcript was made from the recording and lightly cleaned up. It may contain small errors.

Christian: Absolutely, absolutely. No apology necessary at all. So don't even worry about it. All right. So everybody, thank you so much. We're back with Steve Cohen. We've been talking so much about Billy Joel and So It Goes, this new film that comes out on HBO July 18th with part one and part two is the following Friday. It's a Don't Miss event. We've been talking about the band and Billy Joel and his family and the movie, but we haven't really talked about the behind the scenes and the band. And I really want to start with you because here you are. We haven't really learned about you. So I'm so curious. Tell me about where you were born and what your family was like and how you got interested in lighting design and just come on, tell me about yourself.

Steve Cohen: Wow, I'm a West Coast kid. You know, it's funny, everybody thinks I'm from New York, but I was born and raised out in Canoga Park in California in Los Angeles. And, you know, I was a theater kid and never went to any classes. So I never graduated high school. I ended up, you know, playing in the theater and, you know, like all of us, we started bands and... played a little piano and was always interested in performing and was always interested in show business. I remember as a kid, I used to cut school and drive into West Hollywood or into Hollywood and try and break into the studios and watch and make movies. I had a fascination from that from the time I was very, very young. And then, you know. I had a penchant for doing lighting. I worked at a club called the Starwood, which was on Santa Monica Boulevard. I did sound and lights and learned how to drink. And I had a particular talent for interpreting music with light. And in those days, in the early 70s, it's very sophisticated. People nowadays don't realize how primitive. primitive lighting was for music all of those years before all the computerized equipment would come in. It was really all about timing, composition, painting with light. And really, I just loved it. I just loved music. And I felt that this was my way of performing that was a way that I could make an impact. I made a decision long. long before that, wasn't really a great musician, but I had a particular visual acuity and a talent. And, you I went with that. I had a gut feeling about all of that. And I think I told you earlier, like my first, you know, I started a lighting company when I was 20 and my first client of note was Billy Joel, he actually was our first client. We had one lighting system and two clients.

Christian: So how'd you meet him?

Steve Cohen: We cold called, I started a lighting company and we cold called every manager on the back of the Billboard magazine. In 1974, Billboard would come out at the end of the year and in the back cover was a list of every manager and their phone numbers. Remember this is before fax, this is before computers. So we started this lighting company, me and a couple of guys, and we sat and dialed and smiled and told them, gave him a bunch of bullshit to try and get meetings. And the day that I met Billy's manager at the time and his sound engineer, my partner had met with the guys who did Earth, Wind and Fire. And we came back home and said, hey, I got Billy Joel. And he said, hey, I got Earth, Wind and Fire. And we were like, well, we have one lighting system and two clients. So I had to go and rent some gear and put together a very cheap and cheerful lighting system. and get ready to go in rehearsals with Billy. Now what I will say is, I was a California guy. So I was like way into the Eagles. I was way into Linda Ronstadt. I was into progressive rock like Jethro Tull and Emerson Lake and Palmer and all of that stuff. And Billy Joel, piano man, had come out and it just wasn't my particular flavor. I just didn't like it. It wasn't a great song. And I was like, well, I don't know. Okay, fine. I guess I got a gig. And I showed up at rehearsals and the band at that time was Billy, a bass player, named Doug Stegmeier, a pedal steel guitar player named Tom Whitehorse, a drummer named Reese Clark, and a guitar player named Don Evans. And we were in the studio and I set this lighting system up and I'll never forget this. They started to play the ballad of Billy the Kid. And all of a sudden I heard this orchestral depth in an arrangement and this dynamics. It sounded like a Western movie mixed with a rock and roll record. You know, I knew that it had some pretty good rhythmic stuff so I could do some lighting with it. And I left for rehearsals, we'd done a few songs and I walked away going, is something beyond my imagination. Like it was something I had never heard before. And I went out on the road interpreting that music with lighting. you know, in 1974. And it was, it was like, you know, you look at those things that happen in your life and, know, how you get brought to a particular place at a particular time that changes your life. I don't know what was, what was in all of that, but I do know that those couple of weeks were, were, life-changing for me.

Christian: Well, I hear a theme. I mean, so I was in theater too. That's how I started. All I wanted to be was an actress. And I was on Long Island. So I went to the Stony Brook School. I lived in Stony Brook and it's just home to me. And I started acting there. And when you were there, it's all about the story. It's all about the story and lighting is a crucial part of that. And so when you're listening to Billy the Kid and you're hearing this you know, story, and that's all through Billy Joel's music, you can interpret the story with lighting. And so all of a sudden you're not just, you know, lighting a band, you're actually telling a story with lighting, which, you know, is very similar to theater. So that probably in the back of your head was like, I recognize this, I can do this.

Steve Cohen: Thank Yeah, and I think one of the reasons Billy and I developed this relationship was because he knew that I saw that in the music. I heard that in the music and he saw that I saw that. And you don't think about that at the time, you just put your head down and do the work. But now with the reflective time between then and now, what you point out is exactly correct. you he's a storyteller, I'm a storyteller, and we met each other at the right place. And I don't know if I even was aware of any of this stuff throughout the decades, because, you know, we just showed up and worked. That's all we did is we just worked, you know.

Christian: But how did you, because there was so many over, I mean, it's been 50 years, there've been so many that have come and gone. So how have you lasted? What has kept you in the band this long?

Steve Cohen: I'd like to say it's because I'm good at what I do and Billy recognizes that I'm good. I also believe that I have a particular work ethic that reflects his work ethic. I also knew to keep my mouth shut. also never got to... full of myself in what I did. Like, I accepted the responsibilities as they were presented to me, but I never really, you know, tried to bite off more than I could chew. I also, you know, it's a tough bunch of guys. Like, we were all pretty tough on each other. And we were all, we were all, we were all, you know, you never stepped out too much.

Christian: Yeah, I bet.

Steve Cohen: out of your own lane. But if your lane expanded and you grew to it, Billy was the first guy to say, yeah, go ahead and do that. I mean, he's a great boss. I think that the main reason that I've stuck around this long is because I love him and I have done nothing throughout this period of my life, but show up for him. in the best possible manner. And I think he recognizes that. It's also a little different for me. I'm not a player. So I was able to shift and expand and grow in my role with him. I think that in a lot of cases, the relationship between musicians has a sell-by date. There are people who have to grow, producers have to grow. You know, when it comes to that actual art form, you have to make changes in order to grow. And, you know, who knows why people come and go. There's a lot of different reasons that we've had. When we did the credits for the film, part of the thing that I put forth was that I wanted to list, we were talking about how to list the musicians. And I said, well, we have to list all of them. Every single band member that's played with the band. And at the end of the film, there's 56 names, you know, and they're not in order of appearance, but. they are sort of chronologically and it's all because when you're a musician, I believe that you need to introduce lots of different colors in the way you produce that film, produce that music. With me, I don't know, I think I was able to grow a little bit. I think I'm actually kind of okay to be around. it's like not, I'm not, well, the other thing I can be honest with you about is that I kind of know when it's

Christian: Thank you.

Steve Cohen: time to leave the room. And I think that's one of the things that makes anybody successful in a professional relationship is knowing when to shut up and get out. And I think that's, I try never to overstay my welcome.

Christian: Well, this is a podcast for learning. People, I hope, do learn things when they listen. And right there, you gave a long list of things that I think people should write down. It's a good list to learn from. I mean, if you do want to last in any creative relationship. And I do think you're right. Your role, in particular, was easier than the others to stay because you were not necessarily in the band and trying to make it to another level, you also weren't taking anything from Billy. You didn't really need to get anything from him. You were doing a lot of giving. You were, seems to me, a very giving person. You were a very supportive person. You were there to make him better, right?

Steve Cohen: Well, listen, was there. I was there very specifically to take what he gave the audience and give it a visual component. And then that just evolves and that just grows. thought, all of those early videos, I directed all those early videos before MTV came into play. like the earliest stuff was all stuff was like, well,

Christian: Yeah\!

Steve Cohen: Steve, know, Steve knows how to do that. So let him do it. there was no, there wasn't, Billy was not the kind of guy that search out and say, you know, go find this director to do this stuff. Because number one, he hated to be in front of the camera. Number two, he never really wanted to have a visual example. And this is where Elizabeth became very, very important in all this stuff, because for promotional purposes, you know, before MTV, the only people that were doing music videos were the Europeans. So, you know, she wanted to break him over in Europe. And the way to do that was to, you know, do a video of performances or conceptual videos or whatever you want to talk about. So, you know, I did all of that stuff up until really up until the nylon curtain. When the nylon curtain came out, that's when MTV started. And that's when Billy, you know, worked with Russell Mulcahy and did those three videos for the nylon curtain. Then of course, John Small did the, you know, the famous Uptown Girl.

Christian: Interesting.

Steve Cohen: and that period of time, tell her about it. I did all that early stuff because it just fell to me. was like, hey, I'll do it.

Christian: Well, mean, what's interesting, you know, you kept saying you kept growing and yes, you did the early things, but I mean, your career since then, you're not just a lighting guy and you didn't just do the early videos. I mean, come on, you've got a long resume now of doing a lot of different things and you've got a lot of things coming up. So talk to me about all those things. Like, how did you get all this other experience?

Steve Cohen: Well, mean, the touring stuff begat more touring, which begat larger. You know, I became a set designer. I became a production designer. I became a creative director. You I did a lot of stuff. You you stick around long enough. You you end up crossing paths with a lot of people. I did the first Nsync tours and when Justin and Brittany were going out, I ended up doing the Brittany tours. You know, I did the Eagles and Elton and there were many, many opportunities. They all came from, you know, that, you know, initially the door was open with Billy Joel, but, you know, 10 years into my relationship with Billy, I was working with a lot of different artists. And then, you know, as that developed, I started to do lighting for television. I started to do lighting for comedy specials, you know, and the nature of my career, you know, developed. One of the things I think you know, going back to the Billy thing, one of the reasons I think I stayed with Billy as long as possible is that I had another career and he really enjoyed my successes outside of Billy. didn't feel responsible for me all the time. He didn't feel like I was a burden for him. So, you know, I was, you know, he got a kick out of me calling him, telling him that I'm in a rehearsal with Mariah Carey in the middle of Tokyo. And, you know, he'd like... He liked me having that window into the other world and reporting back. So all that was good. And then, you know, as it developed, my first documentary that I produced was The Last Play at Shea, which was the documentary. And how that came about was, you know, we were doing the last two shows at Shea Stadium. Billy wanted to, you know, was being approached by a bunch of documentary filmmakers. And he was frustrated and he just handed me a whole folio of people. said, you pick, you know, basically if you want to do this, why don't you do it? was sort of an abdication of him not wanting to have the responsibility to it. And then I ended up producing that film with, you know, with the, with Glenn Zipper and Nigel Sinclair and Paul Crowder and Mark Monroe. And, and then from that point on, it then fell to me to do all the television projects. So, you know, now.

Christian: All right.

Steve Cohen: Now I'm in development with four or five other TV projects and I'm doing some with Billy and some by myself. But someone was saying to me the other day, it's like, you really itching to do stuff outside of Billy Joel? And I'm at this place in my life where I'm like, I don't really care. There is nothing wrong being attached to the mothership. To me, you know, having him as a mentor, as a collaborator, as a friend, I know that, for example, I have a very good friend of mine who has written two books, who's honored me with the rights to develop them for television. So I have these books and I talk to Bill and I say, hey, read this book and let me see what you think about this and that. there's a collaborative part of our relationship that I hope just keeps going on and on and on. you know, regardless of whether or not he, you know, sings Piano Man again for all care, you know.

Christian: Yeah. Well, you know, I think too, you know, as we get older and I am older, you begin to realize that time is finite. And I think, you know, too, as he's announced this new thing that he's dealing with. I want to hang on to him as long as I can. You know? I mean, my bucket list. since 2014 was to see him in Madison Square Garden and I never got there. There's a whole bunch of reasons, but one of the big ones was because I was working on my film and I was in France all the time in the summers and so I just could never get there. And it's one of the biggest sadnesses of my life that I never got there. And I hope he does sing again, if he ever does sing again. I will fly to Tokyo. I will fly wherever, you know, I hope he does sing again because you

Steve Cohen: Well, I will tell you, like, you know, I go to sleep at night and I go to sleep at night with two wishes. My one wish that I've thought about for years is like, what would I do if I won the lottery? And the second wish is the triumphant return to center stage at Madison Square Garden. So we're on the same page.

Christian: Can please, if that happens, if it's even a discussion... I mean, seriously...

Steve Cohen: You're coming, you're coming, you're coming. If it happens, you're coming. And listen, I don't cut him, and listen, I do not cut him out of this world. There's part of me that knows him so well that if he's able to do it, he can't stay away. There's a part of him that just loves that.

Christian: I just keep hoping that I keep thinking, you know, like I keep thinking, I pray. I actually been praying about it because I keep thinking this can't happen. He can't, I just can't have missed this opportunity. You know, I wanted to do that before I died. It was in my bucket list. How can, how can that just stop? I mean, I, I never thought it would stop. You know, when he announced that it was going to stop, was like, what? Like he can't stop, he's the Energizer Bunny. Like that can't happen.

Steve Cohen: Well, it's funny, Tom Hanks said something on the red carpet the other day. He said, you know, people set their calendars to when they're going to go see Billy Joel. And, know, we were only doing two shows a month, but we were doing two shows a month every single month. So, so.

Christian: Yes\! Yeah. That's why I thought it was just so consistent and I wasn't in a rush. Like I thought, I don't have to rush. And I mean, I have plans with friends in New York and I've made them like the last two or three years and you know, every year something comes up and I'm like, well, you know, we'll do it next year. I mean, and so this past summer was, it was the closest. And then, so you have to call me.

Steve Cohen: Yes. Yes, I will. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Christian: listening, you can tell him I pray for his health and you know, it's even harder now that I've watched this documentary because he's so self revealing. You just feel like you know him at the end. You know, you feel like you're part of his family.

Steve Cohen: Yeah. I'm really, really happy that that's your takeaway from this because that tells us all that we've done our job, that Susan and Jessica have done their job. you know, listen, he says it at the end of the film, you know, I'm not done, I'm trying.

Christian: man. I know he does say that, you know, and that's I love about him. you know, the thing that's so great about him is that you guys talk about how he's always fighting for something, you know, always grasping, you know, it's never enough. He's always, you know, fighting and it's true. And we all are. That's the thing, you know, if you wanted to go to one thing in his music. It's that, you know, it's that we're all grasping. We're all trying to grow. We're all trying to get to know our parents better, right? We're all trying to understand ourselves better. We're all trying to figure out why our relationships broke or, you know, we're all trying to love the people in our lives better. You know, we're all trying to leave something for our children so they won't forget us when we're gone, you know? I can't air this podcast. I just-

Steve Cohen: You know what's great about this? And I'll tell you, as much as it's raw, this is life. This is the thing. This is what we're here for. Feeling our feelings and experiencing them and sharing them is the biggest gift any one of us can give.

Christian: You guys did just such a great job. And this is gonna touch so many people. I was watching all of those people just lying all over the stage. I couldn't believe this is back in the 80s when they were so close to the stage and he's standing right at the edge. That would never happen today. And I just couldn't believe it. And it's like this. It's like this alligator's arms, you know, all over the place. then you look at Madison Square Garden or all these other places and you think about, like I was just in Normandy, okay? So I took this veteran that's 102, Seale Bauer. He's in my film. And in Normandy, you take these World War II veterans back. And these people, these French people are so grateful for their freedom. It is like they are Billy Joel. Like it's like they're Elvis. It's like they're Jesus. They just want to touch the cloak. They just want to touch them. You know, and it reminded me of that. And I was on stage with him for this event and I looked out and there were just thousands of French people out there and it was nothing compared to what I saw. in that Billy Joel film. And when I was on stage like that, I was so overcome with that amount of people and just how moved they were just to see and hear this veteran. And I just can't imagine, now I know why Billy does it. I mean, he's giving people something of himself. you know what? He wore a jacket. This is hilarious. From the time that he started, he would wear a jacket and he still wears a jacket when he plays piano and he's so sweating like crazy because he gives every ounce of himself. I mean, he just is gonna pass out at the end of a concert because it's like he leaves it all on the field and he does it for these people because he loves them. He wants them to feel what he feels.

Steve Cohen: Yeah. Well, it's funny. I'll finish with this. The thing about the jacket, which is probably the quintessential, I'm glad that you brought this up, is what he wore on stage. Very early on, he would wear this leather, this short leather jacket. And then that went away and he'd wear a suit coat and a tie. And it was like, why are you wearing a jacket and a tie? And he'd say to me, Because the audience paid money. I could at least give them a little bit of respect. And that, that has been, that's why he has worn that career was simply because if you're going to go spend money to see me play, I got to show you a little bit of respect and dress up. and you know, it, it became a convenient style guide for him. Cause it's easy. He didn't have to chase trends, although he did have some

Christian: wondered

Steve Cohen: wacky jackets, the orange jacket we used to call the beast. But, but it was always that. And I think, I think that is the quintessential Billy in that, you know, he always said to me, you show up and work. Like that's what you do. If you're to be a bus driver, be the best fucking bus driver you possibly can. Like that's what this is about. Because at the end of the day, that's all you got. And

Christian: You

Steve Cohen: That isn't false humility to me. That is what I define as humility. That it's an accurate assessment of your place in the world. And Bill taught me that when I was 20 and he was 25. I don't know where he got it from, but it was somewhere, you know, knowing his history.

Christian: Yeah, it's especially given. Yes. Let me just say this, especially given his upbringing because because truthfully he doesn't have those role models in his life to teach him those kinds of ethics.

Steve Cohen: Exactly. That's what I was saying. No, but he figured it out and he figured it out in some way, you know, and I think it's because he always believed his talent was a gift and nothing ever to be taken for granted. And also nothing, you know, never really wanted to get under the hood to understand why, because he always thought that the magic would be, you know, dissipated. Like, you know, if I figure it out, then I'm going to know too much and it's not going to happen. There's a certain mysticism and spiritual quality to the way he approaches all this stuff. I mean, he's not really that much of a spiritual guy, but I think that there's a through line of miracle in his discoveries. And I took from that. Listen.

Christian: No question. Well, I'm a very spiritual person and I believe there is a creator that gives gifts, particularly when I see someone like Billy and like you. And truthfully, I was sitting here thinking, we've been talking a lot about Billy, we've been talking a lot about you, but there are so many other people that made this film, whether it was, you know, Tom and Gary or whether it was Susan and Jessica or whether it was all the people behind the scenes that we haven't even mentioned. I mean, there are color correctors. The color was beautiful. The editors were amazing.

Steve Cohen: Well, mean, that's, you know, James Pilat and Stephen Ross and Chris Lime. mean, you know, listen, I think it's so amazing to watch, you know, that participation because really at the end of the day, you know, you are, you know this, you are at the behest of your editors. They give you a cut and they see something in what you shot that you never even saw.

Christian: Yes\! Yeah. Yep. But also how hard do you know? I I'm sure you do. You made this, but I mean, people out there don't know how hard it is for sound designers to do a rock biopic documentary. it is, sound is really hard for a documentary like this. And this sound was amazing.

Steve Cohen: Well, because this is a podcast about filmmaking, that's a real important point that you brought up. One of the things that we did was, and this was part of the things I'm so proud of, is Brad Lee, was the engineer for Phil Ramone, who made 52nd Street and Nylon Curtain and Songs in the Attic and Glass Houses, he was responsible for the... Dolby Atmos re-releases of these records that went on Apple about three or four years ago. And we brought him in to take every one of these tracks and mix them for 5.1, mix them in 5.1 so that the film had authentic 5.1 Dolby tracks as opposed to an airs at mix where you would just sort of make it sort of spatial. He did all of that. He created all the instrumentals. So he stripped Billy's vocal from the original track. So really it was part of the deal that I had said when we were going to do this from the beginning is that the sound and the audio quality, if we're going to take this, has to be the best. So he came in. The other thing we did was there's about four or five pieces of music that are score that were written and produced by Tommy Burns and Tony Bruno.

Christian: I mean, you're basically redoing sound for this.

Steve Cohen: Tommy's brother is guitar player, Tony is his collaborator. And they took and did reinventions. Susan had an idea when she did the ancestor section that she wanted Vienna to have a score, she wanted Vienna to be a baseline for a score. She wanted it to feel, she wanted it to feel a bit more sort of Eastern European. you know, so she tasked them, she commissioned them to write these pieces. They took pieces of,

Christian: I remember that. That was great.

Steve Cohen: Laura and Rosalind's eyes and souvenir and rearrange them, reframe them to underscore part of the Raza story and part of Billy's story. musically, I think this film is so well-defined and so well-executed because of the time involved, because of the work that Susan and Jessica, we all just sort of You know, we really put the hammer down all that stuff. I mean, it's, you know, it, may.

Christian: Yeah, it was, I mean, it just definitely a huge collaborative effort from people who put all the heart and soul in that. And they, you know, they wanted to make it the very, very best. And, you know, I want to say hats off to all the people who were willing to be vulnerable, you know, the X, Y's, the X band members, the, you know, you know, the children and the stepchildren and Just there was just so many people who were willing to step up for Billy to make this film. And it is not easy to do that because it lives forever. I hope that it was a healing thing perhaps, because it just was for me watching it. I was thinking a lot about my own stuff. So that was very special to watch. And I was just very thankful for that. Is there anything that you would like to talk about, anything that happened, anything that you were really proud of, anything that nobody ever asks you that you wanna talk about?

Steve Cohen: Well. I'll tell you, I think the thing that comes to the top of my mind for me is, spend your life living your life and working and showing up and doing the best you can, and you never think that you get an opportunity to watch it play back in front of you. You know, that Billy trusted me to be the gatekeeper, that he trusted me to be the shepherd, told me about a relationship that even I didn't understand. And I think the most astounding thing about this is that we've gotten here. So many times I thought the plug would be pulled.

Christian: Yeah, you didn't know you had.

Steve Cohen: for some reason or another, and that I was able to learn about myself and learn about Billy in ways that I never anticipated that it would happen. like you get, I pinch myself, you get really, these kinds of opportunities don't ever present themselves. And what that does for me is it motivates me to try and share this with other people. so that I can tell them all you need is a bit of reflection and you too can have the grace that comes from this kind of process. The friendships that I made, look, I'm 71 years old. I'm too old to have new friends. Like, what do I, like, we have friends. Like, I have now in the past four years made have relationships.

Christian: No, you're not.

Steve Cohen: that are gonna last the rest of my life that I wish I'd had for the past 30 years because of this project. I mean, it's a testament to Bill, but at the end of the day, I'm a pretty lucky guy. I think that that's the thing. If there's anything I can take forward is, you know, we're all of service. We're put on this earth to be of service. So by being a part of this movie, and I'm just a part of this movie, this is not my movie. I did not make this movie. I was a soldier in an army that helped march this army to a victory, to a goal. I helped Susan, I helped Jessica, I supported them. I gave them gateways into things. I had a draft of a memoir that Billy had written that I had the only copy. And I was like, well,

Christian: you

Steve Cohen: you Bill, I think there's some good shit in here, but you you gave it to me and he's like, I don't, I don't remember, you know, like, so I opened that up and gave that to, to Susan. So I was able to, I was able to.

Christian: Wow. is that where, where did the handwriting things come in? I loved that tech.

Steve Cohen: Although that's how he writes lyrics. Those books were all that he always wrote in a long and spiral notebook. yeah, no, those notebooks are all in the role in storage. Yeah.

Christian: Police still has those notebooks? man, I hope those are in a museum at some point. Those, was cool where they, I loved whoever did that. mean, those, I'm sure was Jessica and Susan, they, the, and let me just give a shout out to the art producers because those are the archival and clearance producers because the archival stuff in here and the way that the directors used to those, it was brilliant. It was just engaging. kept you.

Steve Cohen: for great.

Christian: wanting to lean in, you know, it was boring.

Steve Cohen: Well, you know, it's interesting, the, Penta Mento team, first of all, they're all women. They're all women. Katie Ash, Sydney Calpas, they are all they, you know, the archive producers, they were, they were involved, you know, knee deep. John Jackson, who used to be at Sony for 22 years came on as our own archivist for Billy. We've just brought him on board a couple of years ago. He's one of the archive producers and we both, you know,

Christian: I love that, gay women\!

Steve Cohen: We're in the boxes, pulling stuff out, saying, is a better version of this, this is a better version of that. And in the process, we've discovered footage that I didn't even know we shot. I just got a rough cut of a concert that we shot in a club in Long Island in black and white that I only thought we shot three songs that I now I've got a rough cut of about 12 songs. So, you know, because of the process. you know, it was tremendous. And listen. This is not a, know, HBO. got to give a big shout out to HBO. They wrote a big check. They wrote a big check. And this is a, this was a, this was a properly funded, you know, justifiably funded documentary.

Christian: Yeah, they had to. And did it take five years? Like how long did it take? Yeah. And really honestly, that's quick given how big this task is. I mean, this is 50 years, 51 years of a man's ginormous career. I asked Alexa.

Steve Cohen: About four years, really, about four years.

Christian: I asked Alexa to list for me how many albums Billy Joel had, and I think it was like something like 146 or something, and I was like, what? I was like, you gotta be kidding me. and I learned that he did write a, he wrote a classic, a classic piece called Fantasies and Delusions.

Steve Cohen: It's a classical album of, you know, I mean, and it was number one on the classical charts for 12 years. Yeah, see, there we go.

Christian: Didn't even know that. I thought I knew everything I could about Billy Joel. I learned so much in this film. Listen, truthfully, all the people behind the scenes that nobody knows about, the art producers, the sound guys, all of them, please tell them what an amazing job I thought they did. I know how much of a collaborate collaborative work it is. I know that everybody poured their soul into this because it wasn't just to make Billy look good. I think that everybody knows this is a big family and it's not just his story, it's our story. And it's the great thing about Billy, he invites everyone into the story. You know, one of the pictures I loved is in the very beginning, Elizabeth talks about this and I, there's a name for you guys. She said, all of a sudden you became this big something. It's like a meat.

Steve Cohen: meme brothers.

Christian: Mean Brothers, what does that mean?

Steve Cohen: I don't know, we just had an attitude. We were tough. Yeah, we were mean. We were just mean. We were just mean guys. And in fact, we weren't. We were all a of sweethearts. But we liked to profess that we were like, oh yeah, we're tough. It was the mean brothers. was me, MB1, MB2, MB3, MB4, and then...

Christian: M-E-A-N, M-E-A-N.

Steve Cohen: Elizabeth was Queen Mean B.

Christian: Yeah, I mean, it just he made this family and he stayed with his family. I mean, how many of you guys are still close? How many people kind of stayed in the family?

Steve Cohen: the ones that are still alive, we're all close. mean, we're not close, close, but we, you know, it was great reconnecting with everyone. I have this connection with all those guys in the original band because I was there with them at the beginning. You know, they're not there. I still am. So when we needed them for the film, I was the guy who reached out to all of them. So, you know, and I think it's been a great opportunity for all of us to reconnect.

Christian: Tell Liberty I loved him. Like I just loved him. I loved watching the evolution of him as a man, like boy to a man and just the way he looked. He looks really cool now, by the way. You can tell him I thought that. And I just loved how he was but hurt but then came back and I loved how he said, I'll play for you anytime, but tell what's his name. I don't remember the name. Yeah.

Steve Cohen: Right. All right, then, let's kiss my.

Christian: Yeah, I'll never play for him again. Yeah, I just thought he was the coolest. yeah, I mean, you guys listening, you have heard so much right now that you can learn from. You have been in the business for a long time and you you didn't finish high school, but you got a master's, you got several master's degrees over the course of your life. It is stunning to me. what you have accomplished in your life and not just in what you can do, but I'm listening to you, I've gotten to know you over this time and I hear the depth of your knowledge of people and no wonder Billy loves you like he does because you do equal, I see you have the same heart and understanding of people and care. mean, if you're gonna stick around like that, you do mirror him, I get it, yeah.

Steve Cohen: Thank you. Well, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. just, I love talking about this and you brought out stuff out of me that like Susan brought out of Bill. So I really appreciate it. I can't wait to hear what you cut this show up into and, okay, this is live. This rolls the way it is.

Christian: It's my job. there's no cutting. This is This rolls the way it is. We'll cut the little pause out just a little bit, but I'm going to roll it from the beginning and I probably will

Steve Cohen: I can't wait and I think that it's a service that if we've had the opportunity to educate and to share experiences and inspire people to go make good work, I think that both of us did what we needed to do here.

Christian: Yeah, I think so too. We'll probably divide it up into two podcasts now because we've talked for an hour and a half. And I think it's just been delightful. I've learned so much. This has been an opportunity of a lifetime to meet you. I wish I could be your friend forever. It's just, you're an amazing man. And I thank you for what you've taught me since I was 13 and what you've taught me in this podcast.

Steve Cohen: Well, thank you very much. I really appreciate it. And I can't wait for people to see the movie. you know, we're not done yet. Just like Billy says, we're not done. We got lots more to do.

Christian: Well, Samantha has my email and I'm going to send you my phone number and my, and listen, you know, well, we'll talk when I hit in, but anyway, all right, is there anything else? let me do like a quick, we're supposed to ask people, I have a special segment of my podcast. So hang on one minute. We're going to do my special segment. It's called DocuVue Deja Vu. Do you have a documentary that you would like to recommend to our audience?

Steve Cohen: Yes? Please\!

Christian: Go on, shoot.

Steve Cohen: Well, I have two. think, think, The Kid Stays in the Picture is one that has resonated with me forever. It's about the filmmaker Bob Evans. And I think, you know what the problem is? I don't think that's a duck. I think it might be a narrative.

Christian: I mean, you've heard of them. That's okay. That's okay. We kind of, we fudge things here sometimes. So it's okay.

Steve Cohen: of And. You know, I will get into an argument with my friend Susan Lacey about this, but I think that the Frank Sinatra documentary will always stand as...

Christian: can't believe you said that.

Steve Cohen: I love the fact that there's no talking heads in that film and it's all done audio wise. I think that that was probably one of my favorites. The other one, I'll tell you the other one that I just saw that I really liked was Barry Average's David Foster documentary. I thought that that was a really interesting thing because I thought David was very, very raw.

Christian: I can't believe you said that.

Steve Cohen: in all of that and he got him to be completely honest. And then my fourth, which is probably the number one, is of course my friend Susan Lacy's Leonard Bernstein documentary. think that is far and away one of the most superior artist documentaries. That probably goes on the top of my list.

Christian: Yeah, she's amazing. That is a fantastic one. But I will tell you that Frank Sinatra documentary, it's just as long as yours. I mean, it's not longer. And I have watched that. I've watched that. When I watched yours, I thought the same thing I think about Frank Sinatra's. I watch it all the time and it's crazy. I don't know why, but I just could watch it over and over again. And his is linear.

Steve Cohen: arts.

Christian: but it kind of doesn't matter. just love it. And yours is the same way. I thought, you know, this is a kind of documentary that I'm gonna watch over and over again because I just love this story and the music is there.

Steve Cohen: For me to be in the same, for us to be in the same world as Frank Sinatra, that's mission accomplished. Thank you so much. Thank you. Please let's stay in touch, all right?

Christian: Yeah, well, you're there in my book. I would love that. Yeah. All right. Now don't go away. I'm going to stop for courting, but don't go away. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to documentary first where we believe everybody has a story to tell and you can be the one to tell it. Bye everybody.