Charles Olivier on Editing Surviving Ohio State for HBO

Documentary First, Episode 270. Christian Taylor talks with Charles Olivier, the Emmy and Peabody Award-winning editor of HBO's Surviving Ohio State. 57 minutes. Released January 29, 2026.

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What does an editor owe the men whose stories no one wanted to hear?

That was the weight Charles Olivier carried into Surviving Ohio State, the HBO documentary from Oscar winner Eva Orner about decades of abuse by a team doctor in Ohio State's athletic programs. As Charles says, the stories weren't new. They were out there. The heartbreak, as he puts it, was that "hundreds into thousands of men" were ignored, mocked or pushed aside, and then rejected when they came forward.

In Episode 270 of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor talks with Charles, the editor of The Jinx, The Redeem Team and Magic and Bird, from his home in France. He came onto the film as "fresh eyes" after a first cut, pitched his outline to the whole team on Zoom, and saw his job the way he sees every job: "you're kind of a midwife" to the director. He grew up in Texas in the same years these athletes were wrestling, played football, and has two little boys. Of all his films, he says, "this is really the one that I want my sons to watch."

Charles talks about how he got here: getting sick in film school and staying in New York, apprenticing for Sam Pollard, and cutting the Jackie Robinson story in Ezra Edelman's Brooklyn Dodgers film for HBO. "I'm not like a sports guy, which is the genius of it all," he says. For him it was always about the relationships. Ezra taught him that people watch a film for a tiny part of their lives, and what they keep is the memory of it, so you have to think about what you want them to remember.

He builds a film the way a composer builds a symphony, "trying to sculpt emotion and engagement, tone and response over time." For Surviving Ohio State he anchored the story in two wrestlers, Dan and Mike, so that a number too big to grasp would still feel human, and he let the men's interviews breathe, silences and all. "That was me just getting out of the way," he says. He also shares what it's like to get notes, and YouTube clips, from George Clooney.

In this episode, you'll learn

• What it means to be hired as "fresh eyes" on a film that's already been cut
• Why Charles thinks of an editor as a midwife to the director
• How a film school illness and an apprenticeship with Sam Pollard started his career
• Why not being a sports guy helped him cut sports documentaries
• What Ezra Edelman taught him about what viewers remember
• How symphonic form shapes the structure of his films
• How to keep more than a thousand victims from becoming just a number
• Why he writes down his own first reactions to the footage
• What notes from George Clooney and Grant Heslov were like
• Why watching a cut with someone else wakes you up to it

Questions and answers

Who edited Surviving Ohio State?

Charles Olivier edited Surviving Ohio State, the 2025 HBO documentary directed by Eva Orner. He tells Christian he came in as "fresh eyes" after the film had already been cut once for HBO. The producers spent a summer interviewing editors, and he won the job by writing up an outline, pitching it to the whole team on Zoom, and talking at length with Eva about the story she wanted to tell.

What is Surviving Ohio State about?

Surviving Ohio State is about male athletes, mostly wrestlers, who were abused by a team doctor at Ohio State through the 1970s, 80s and 90s. Charles Olivier says the film is less about the doctor than about the betrayal that followed, when the men came forward and were ignored or rejected. It is based on Jon Wertheim's 2020 Sports Illustrated story, premiered at Tribeca in June 2025 and aired on HBO June 17, 2025.

How does music influence documentary editing?

Charles Olivier, who has a background in music composition, structures documentaries more like classical symphonies than three-act stories. He says symphonic form does what a film does: it sculpts emotion and engagement, tone and response over time. For Surviving Ohio State, he wanted one theme that felt warm and intimate and another that felt vast, cold and unstoppable, the men facing off with institutions.

How do you keep a documentary emotional when there are over a thousand victims?

Charles Olivier says it's easy to get lost in the numbers, and it isn't enough to put a face on a number. In Surviving Ohio State he kept coming back to one relationship, between two wrestlers, Dan and Mike, as a thread of intimacy while the story grew bigger. He was happiest with the moments that simply stay with someone and give them space to be silent and work through their feelings.

How do documentary editors find the story?

Charles Olivier advises editors not to focus on the end. He notes his own emotional response as he watches footage, lays it all out on a board, and looks for the grain of the material, who is really carrying the story. In Surviving Ohio State, Dan wasn't supposed to be the central character. Charles also watches cuts with other people, because you can feel when a section isn't working even if no one says a word.

What was it like working with George Clooney?

Charles Olivier says George Clooney, who produced Surviving Ohio State with Grant Heslov, was very polite and "a really lovely guy." Clooney's notes were about emotion, while Heslov's were about logic and arcs, so the notes sometimes contradicted each other. Clooney also sent YouTube clips he had found himself, and when one didn't fit, he agreed it didn't work.

Where can I watch Surviving Ohio State?

Surviving Ohio State premiered on HBO on June 17, 2025, and streams on HBO Max.

Chapters

Times match the YouTube video.

• 0:00 Meet Charles Olivier
• 5:08 What Is Surviving Ohio State?
• 9:17 Hired as Fresh Eyes
• 14:24 From Film School to HBO
• 18:50 Power, Money and Silence
• 24:36 Betrayal and Jim Jordan
• 28:05 Editing Like a Symphony
• 32:20 Keeping 1,000 Victims Human
• 36:38 Trust Your First Reaction
• 44:47 Notes From George Clooney
• 49:06 Advice for Emerging Editors
• 52:36 DocuView Deja View Pick

Watch the film

Surviving Ohio State premiered on HBO and streams on HBO Max. It premiered at the 2025 Tribeca Festival. Charles talks more about the edit in Post Magazine.

DocuView Deja View pick: Charles recommends Fyre (2019), Chris Smith's Netflix film about the failed Fyre music festival. Two documentaries about the same event came out within days of each other, and he picks this one for how well it's put together. Watch it with the structure in mind, he says, and you'll see where the director and the editor earned their moments. See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

About the guest

Charles Olivier is an Emmy and Peabody Award-winning editor and writer with more than 20 years in film, television and audio. His credits include Deadline, the History Channel series 10 Days That Unexpectedly Changed America, Brooklyn Dodgers: Ghosts of Flatbush and Magic and Bird: A Courtship of Rivals (Peabody Award) with Ezra Edelman, The Redeem Team (Emmy, 2023), and HBO's The Jinx: Part Two, for which he was Emmy-nominated for picture editing in 2024. He has worked with HBO, Netflix, PBS and Amazon, and divides his time between France, New York and Los Angeles. Charles on IMDb

More from Charles: In a Deep Dive, Christian follows one idea from this conversation, why viewers forget most of a film and remember the human moments: Why Viewers Forget 90% of Your Film.

Related conversations

Director Cecilia Peck and editor Inbal Lessner, whose editing team was nominated in the same 2024 Emmy category as Charles, talk about Escaping Twin Flames. James L. Freedman tells the story behind his Charles Grodin documentary, and Phil Maher explains why home movies make powerful archival footage.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Follow the show | Support on Patreon

This episode is sponsored by Virgil Films Entertainment. Learn more at virgilfilms.com.

Full transcript

This transcript was made from the recording and lightly cleaned up. It may contain small errors.

Christian: Welcome to Documentary First, an inside look at documentary filmmaking, the art, heart and hard work of documentary filmmaking. I'm your host, Christian Taylor, a documentary filmmaker myself. And every week I sit down with storytellers who capture real life on camera one frame at a time so we can learn from their experiences, sharpen our craft and stay inspired on our own filmmaking journeys. Now today we're joined by a filmmaker who is actually in my favorite country of France. His name is Charles Olivier, an Emmy and Peebody award winning editor and writer with more than 20 years in film, television and audio. More recently, Charles edited the hard hitting HBO Max documentary, Surviving Ohio State, directed by Oscar winner Eva Orner. Do you say her name, Orner? How do you say it, Orner? And produced by George Clooney. a powerful and deeply emotional film that premiered at Tribeca and exposes decades of abuse with Ohio State's athletic programs. Charles is known for his emotionally rich, musically attuned storyteller shaped by his background in music composition. And you felt his touch on projects like The Jinx, The Redeemed Team, Magic and Bird, and Deadline. He's collaborated with HBO, Netflix, PBS, and Amazon and splits his time between France, New York, and Los Angeles. Charles, welcome to the show. I'm super glad that you're here. So nice to have you.

Charles Olivier: great to be here.

Christian: All right. Well, before we dive into all of that incredible work, I'd really love to start with surviving Ohio State is a powerful, sensitive story. And I just finished watching it like, just like, dunno, 15 minutes ago, I told you, and I, I, it was hard to watch. got to tell you, ⁓ it was, it was very emotional and I did at the end get very angry. I have to tell you, I had an emotional reaction at the end. I won't give that away, but I will tell you, I think I had the reaction you wanted me to have at the end.

Charles Olivier: Yeah, I mean, it's a bittersweet project for me. You know, in a lot of ways, it was wonderful that these men now got the recognition that they deserved and that the film's been well received. But I was... You know, what's hard with this film is that it's not like there was a big revelation of unknown material. Like these stories were out there. You know, what we did was just kind of amassed them together and organized them and structured them in such a way that there was a story. But what's heartbreaking. And what was an aspect of the story was that all of these men, hundreds into thousands of men, were consciously ignored or mocked or pushed to the side. And they had to not just sort of go through whatever the healing process was and remained for. sexual abuse victim. But then, to then when they come forward to be rejected by people, which was nuts. It was crazy. And so, yeah.

Christian: So we've started to jump ahead actually, and we haven't really told her. Yes. I mean, it's my fault actually. I should have asked you to give the log line or tell a little bit about what Surviving Ohio State is because people may not have seen the movie. So why don't you tell us a little bit about what it is and then talk to us about what drew you to this project.

Charles Olivier: You're going to notice that there's another shortage of RAM. Yes.

Christian: and why you decided to work on it in the first place.

Charles Olivier: Yeah, I'm sort of notorious for the why use one word when 10 will do. So log lines can often be somewhat novel length. But the story in a nutshell is that of kind of one more. university sexual abuse scandal that involves athletes. And so these were athletes who through the 70s and 80s and 90s were the victims of a doctor, a team doctor, ⁓ very much like what happened at Penn, very much what happened at Michigan. The difference here being that these were men. And that ended up making all the difference. And so what we do is we kind of delve into what the story was and then start to get into what happened. And yeah, so and it was it was it was crazy. You know, it was it was it was crazy to see. so many, I mean, so many emotions against it. But but and we can get into that. But but that's that's basically the story. So it's they they they came out of Ohio State where they were largely were following wrestlers and a couple of athletes from other sports. But the majority of it's through the wrestling team. And

Christian: And how did this, you know, I mean, even before, did you get drawn to the project? Like why all of a sudden did this documentary come to be in the first place?

Charles Olivier: Sure. So John Wirtime, who's a sports illustrator writer, had been contacted a year before Eva started working on it. Sorry, Eva Warner is the director. Before Eva was working on it, he had written a piece about Ohio State and sort of what happened and why aren't people talking about this. From there, George Clooney and his partner Grant Heslov found that article, wanted to tell that story. And so then they went to, and then David Glasser, who runs a studio called 101 Studio. And then that whole group brought in Eva. then they went, and so it was kind of step by step. Everybody wanted to tell this story. And some people for different reasons. Eva came in really with no background in American sports, collegiate American sports in the Big Ten. She's Australian, but was very much drawn to this being a story about kind of the guy code. Like, why was the story that You know, you're looking at over a thousand victims in total. mean, just numbers that are like you can't really even wrap your head around. But so why did this happen? Like, how was the university complicit through all of that? And then sort of what happened afterwards? Like, why was there so much silence? So she wanted to get in on that. And then, you know, there was this other aspect of the story that we got into a bit. which is Jim Jordan, who's a very powerful Republican congressman from Ohio, was an assistant wrestling coach at the time that this was happening and, you know, likely knew much of it himself and remained quiet. You know, everybody kind of had their reasons at the time. And so we wanted to get into what are the reasons that if you're a man and this happened. You're going to be quiet, probably yourself, and not report it. And then what happens when Yeah.

Christian: Yeah. So, and then what was your, why were you drawn to this project? How did you get involved?

Charles Olivier: I initially came into this project as what they call fresh eyes. So the project, they'd actually started cutting it for HBO. And it was kind of moving in one direction. And I think they just, they weren't really happy with what they had received and wanted it to go. in a different way. And part of the problem is when you do have a lot of people involved in a film, getting people to sign off on what direction we're going can be its own game. But I think it was also people weren't totally sure what it is we wanted to tell. And so they spent the summer sort of interviewing editors. And so I did that sort of compare it to flash dance where you kind of, you you watch. mean, so I'll go back. But so I watched what they had cut and and it's it was just baffling to me the abuse in that story, but just also why there was this wake of silence about what to me was an incomprehensible number of victims. And so that's what drew me to it. I have two little boys. I grew up basically in the exact same time period that these athletes were there. I grew up in Texas and went to a big school and just know that whole machismo code. ⁓ I played football the whole game. so it really struck me at a very personal level. And then for them to try to flip the script and redefine what a lot of these words meant like strength and grit and resilience and all these things. But in a... in a way that was self-referenced and about healing really, really resonated with me as well. And so when I saw what they had, the footage, I just saw a story that I thought was incredible. And I loved what Eva was doing with her interviews. so.

Christian: and you were selected because...

Charles Olivier: You know, I don't know that they were very happy with it. No, I was selected, think, because when I saw it, I sort of I go a little crazy when I kind of want to do something. And so I had kind of written up what I thought would be a good outline and. And at that time I was talking with two of the producers, Rebecca Zoyan and Elliot Goldberg, and kind of pitched them my idea. And then they put together a Zoom with everybody on it. And I kind of pitched it to everyone. And it seemed like it got sort of everyone's approval. And then... And so, yeah, so then they agreed to kind of let me on. I was and ⁓ a big part of it, too, was that I just got on the phone with Eva and we talked a lot and I just wanted to hear what she saw and what the story was that she wanted to tell. And I think in a lot of ways, that's probably. selected. I think it's one thing to kind of like try and impose an image, but like for me it's always like you're kind of a midwife, you know, to a director to try and help them create this project.

Christian: That is a fantastic analogy because I think that is such a perfect analogy for an editor-director relationship because you do have to be working together to deliver this beautiful baby together and it is such a defined effort and you have to be on the same page working in rhythm with one another in order to... for this to happen. So I completely understand the idea of you pitching something and talking with her and getting on the same page and her making sure that she is comfortable with your vision and you being sure that you can deliver on her vision. so that's pretty cool actually that they were sort of auditioning editors and you had your opportunity to give your vision and the opportunity to meet with the director. That's a really, I think that's interesting for our audience to hear. Our audience oftentimes likes to hear, how do I get into that position? And I was wondering that myself, you've cut a lot of things for a lot of big films. How did you get to that level in your career to begin with? Can you recall how you made that level jump?

Charles Olivier: I mean, I don't know. I think some people have the kind of secret shoots and ladders special ticket up. Mine's really just been kind of incrementally climbing. So I came in, I went to film school. And then what happened was that I ended up getting sick when I was in film school. and didn't wanna go home to do treatment. And so ended up staying in New York where I was going to school, but needed a job, needed to do something. And there is nothing like a documentary filmmaker like the people who were teaching at school to like get that low paid. grad student to like, to cut my film. And so that's kind of how I started. I just started cutting a bunch of films. And so I was cutting all kinds of, all kinds of movies. And then that led to me doing music videos. And so I was doing music videos and cutting like low budget documentaries for a while. A really great editor. Sam Pollard who's done a bunch of Spike Lee stuff. I started apprentice editing for him and so I like you know kind of that was a doorway at that time that you could actually get into an edit room and so you know and I would just hang around and just talk with him and and you end up just kind of meeting some people. And then trying to think like where the big leap came. I mean, ultimately the big, big leap came is when I had been doing that for a while. I had been doing a lot of kind of leftist sort of more socialist civil rights type of documentaries. And so HBO, and Ezra Edelman, who was at that time, he was a sports director at HBO and they were doing a documentary on the Brooklyn Dodgers. And so I came in to do like the Jackie Robinson part, because that was kind of my scene and I love that. And we ended up doing that film. It just kind of got bigger and bigger. And so he and I worked together and And that film did really well. And then he and I did another film together on Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. And I'm not like a sports guy, which is the genius of it all. that's like, and so I started. added. It would frustrate producers because ultimately they would like, could track the spectrum of emotions that went across their faces. They were sort of confused when they would say like, well, just, you know.

Christian: But you weren't focusing on the sports, you were focusing on the story.

Charles Olivier: Yeah, for me it was always about the relationships and in all earnestness that was always what I would say.

Christian: You know, it's funny because that's the way it was in my World War II storytelling. Everybody always sees the war and I'm like, I'm interested in the people and the relationships and how the war acted, how everyone lived because we don't talk about that. And I think that is what is really interesting, you know, and that's what's lasting actually. that's, that's interesting. Yeah.

Charles Olivier: Yeah. completely. Completely. Yeah, completely. And it was really interesting. So like Ezra, I adore him. And that's what we would talk about is that people are going to watch your movie for such an infinitesimally small percentage of their life. What they're going to do is remember it. And so you've got to think about what is it you want them to remember. and more than anything, it's about relationships or moments. And those relationships can be between two people or that relationship can be between like me and you on camera. It's those human moments. The backgrounds all sort of change, but the humanity in it is the thing that we're tracking

Christian: Yeah. Well, I was going to ask you this later on, but we're here now. So what is the message that you want people to walk away with from this surviving Ohio State film?

Charles Olivier: Yeah. It's tricky to like encapsulate this movie in a singular message because I think there are people that need to be held to account. And so I think anger is a correct response to have to it. You know, these... sports programs just kind of exist apart from the abuse or any of that just on these piles of young athletes, men and women. And the amount of money that's going through these schools is like approaching obscene to me. And for these athletes, they're children, you know, and they're going face to face with what I see as just massive power, just massive, but like so much money, so much just kind of institutional power. you know, boys and girls kind of are going into that totally unprepared for what's there for them. So I guess what to me the message is, is it's largely guy focused, ⁓ I would say, probably. And so, you know, one of the most interesting characters in the movie is a mom. You know, she's a journalist and she's a, you know, she's a voice who's setting a lot of the context for the story, but she's a mom and she's, you know, and also she loves Ohio State. And so that's a conflict for her, but she. She said something that I felt was amazing, which is like you tell your daughter, like when they go to these schools, like, you to be, you to like you ready them for these things, but you don't think to tell your son like what to do in these power dynamics. ⁓ And so I hope what the message is, is sort of what the men went through. And I think it's what I referred to earlier, which is, you know, it's important to to the definitions of a lot of the terms being thrown around about what it is to be tough, know, tough it out or what it is to be a team member, to be a man, you know, and I am just, I'm so, we talk about like, we were just talking about like, just so humbled and inspired by these by these athletes.

Christian: Yeah, yeah. Well, and what I walked away from this film, if you want to know, I was...

Charles Olivier: Please, I know you're much better doing this than me.

Christian: First of all, it was educational. It was educational in a lot of ways. You know that these schools, colleges profit immensely off of the backs of student athletes. It is disgusting. And they are finally now being recompensed, but it's also disgusting how that's working out. I don't think that's helping either. But ⁓ it's a big problem. you know, so you... A, now C, you demonstrate how that money situation with schools profiteering off of these young kids, how that is affecting these kids and the power dynamics that they're feeling. So I thought you explained that really well, how powerless they feel, particularly the ones that are getting scholarships that have no other way of going to college. How powerless, yeah.

Charles Olivier: Powerless they are, you know? Yeah, they truly are powerful.

Christian: and you have no voice and they're just so afraid. And then, you know, how innocent and naive they are and how easy they are to take advantage of. you know, we suffer in silence and it is a male problem, but it is also a female problem. And so I think it's important to tell our kids, male and female, that, you know, when you... when there's this thing inside of your gut that makes you feel uncomfortable when another person says something or does something, you have to talk about it. You have to tell someone. And I think that was what I took away from that is to tell my own kids. and you know, and to think of myself is that, know, you've got to talk and not hide things, ⁓ you know, for your own safety and sanity. mean, when you see how damaging that was to the people that you interviewed for the rest of their lives. you know, at the end you interviewed or you interviewed someone where they talked about how it decimated the rest of their lives and also the other kids around them with drinking and divorces and all the other things they lift listed off. After their experience in that sport with that one doctor, it's, you know, Like I said, eye-opening, very educational, and it's unfortunate that these boys had to pay the price for us to learn that.

Charles Olivier: Completely. I I think I totally agree with you. And I think watching this as a father of my movies, this is really the one that I want my sons to watch. And it's probably the most harrowing of all of them. But because it's exactly as you're saying, it's the one that lays the foundation for conversations that are ugly and hard and absolutely. necessary, that you need to be able to find a place where you can have this conversation. The problem, I think, that really messed with these guys is some of them did try to talk. wasn't just like, mean, I think the movie wasn't really, I mean, in a way, it wasn't about this doctor. You're going to find these sorts of things, these people, unfortunately. But. It was the levels of betrayal after that. Everyone involved would just come through.

Christian: It was a power up by everybody else, including the people that were supposed to be protecting them.

Charles Olivier: their fathers and their sort of parents away from their family. One of the biggest difficulties, I'm sorry to catch you off, one of the biggest difficulties with athletes in particular to get to the level where they are, they have been so focused on this, is that they're so much more naive than a lot of other children arriving at the university. This has been everything.

Christian: And when you get it No.

Charles Olivier: And they put all of their trust into a coach. know, this coach, just, mean, you know, we were talking about the military. It's, very similar, you know, and that is a value, like a true value to them is to, is to follow and be a team member and be a part of something bigger than them. And that was systematically used against them. ⁓ you know, like if you really want to help the team, you won't say anything. If you really want to help your teammate and their heads just, and they couldn't get away from it, you know? And, and so I think just the level of distrust is so deep in them. And so for them to then trust the director was huge, so huge. And that's what.

Christian: Yeah, absolutely. And then you get even deeper where you get to the Jim Jordan situation where it's a, you know, a Congressman in your state. And not only is he lying, but he's then got a pressure campaign where he's calling the players, you know, and telling them not to say anything and then yet lying about it. I mean, unbelievable.

Charles Olivier: just and lying about it on television, you know, just like, it just, just, it's so hard. you know, I, like, just as we're talking, I'm trying to think of anything that, that I've ever lived through that like, you know, would be that much of just like a house of mirrors just crashing. Just every, everything that defines your identity just, just broke.

Christian: No, I mean...

Charles Olivier: And exactly, Jim Jordan, was seen, even if people were Democrats, even if people weren't of his political party, looked at him as someone who had integrity. This was even knowing that he was likely complicit or, you know. let it go. They were like, okay, well, I can see it. He was the coach. It was for the team. Maybe he was a victim here too. And then to see that, no, he was, he was opportunistic like a lot of these other people and they used you. yeah, anyway, so that I think, so that does elicit real anger and a desire to change. So yeah.

Christian: Yeah. You know. ⁓ Absolutely. And now I want to talk a little bit about sort of the rhythm of the film. You do have a musical background and this film fills, you know, one of the beautiful things about it is it flows really well. It has sort of a musical, the music is there is music and subtle music in the background. And how does that musical background influence the editing choices, you know, where tone and pacing carry so much of that? you know, emotional weight.

Charles Olivier: Sure, well, thank you for saying that. That is, that's my, that's, I think I had to say this, that's kind of how I approach most of the documentaries I work on is to look at them structurally from probably more of a musical perspective than... kind of classic three act narrative structure construction. Sure, I I think first off with documentary, there's the reality of you're telling a story that's fairly unorthodox from the beginning and you're coming at it with just a big grab bag.

Christian: Okay. Talk about that.

Charles Olivier: all kinds of different things. Maybe it's got a lot of archival, but only in one section. Maybe some of it's got to be narrated. Maybe some of it's going to need a journalist. Maybe you've got access here. And it might span however many decades or different timelines or you name it. And I think what can often happen is that if you kind of go at it with there's a right and a wrong way to tell this story, it brings a kind of brittle texture or quality to me. And people try and find the certainty by just cutting sequences. And you can start to feel it. Stuff is just fast. They're just trying to load in information. And so kind of early on, I started to look at documentaries from different structural points of view. And one that I use a lot is like classical symphonies. This is all going to sound insanely pretentious. it's not that I think like, oh, you Brahms would be the perfect, though sometimes Brahms is great, but it's to look at what symphonic form is trying to do. And it's really, it's the exact same thing that a film is trying to do, which is you're trying to sculpt emotion and engagement, tone and response over time. And the...

Christian: Right? I will say what I learned in my own film is that our emotions in a movie ride the wave of that music. And so the story is there, but it is that music that carries us through, I think. Yeah.

Charles Olivier: Completely, And so if you kind of understand that foundation, then everything else starts to kind of fall within it. As you start to think about, what are the themes that play? And what do those sound like? And sound can be, what do those sound like in terms of voice? What do those sound like in terms of sound effects? And... What do those feel like? And so for me with like Ohio State, I mean, we can get into some of the music that I was actually listening to when I was cutting it, but like more than anything, like with the themes, it was like we've been talking about, it was about people kind of facing off with institutions. And so one felt like I wanted something that was warm. intimate, and then I wanted something that was vast and cold and just unstoppable. Something that had a lot of air on it that was a very kind of cold pattern and then to mix it with, you know, trust and love and

Christian: Yeah, you had something intimate and cozy in there. Yeah.

Charles Olivier: Yeah. And so we kind of went back and we were doing like aerials and things like that to try and gain that space. And then I knew like I was structurally wanted to kind of get it down into a relationship. And so we start the film with one of the wrestlers, this guy, Dan. And he's to me he was just this really engaging guy. ⁓ And his journey is one that like you can look at just kind of classically art narratively. But also he I felt just I know I just liked him. just like I like I like spending time with him and then he had this relationship with this other wrestler Mike. And then it was kind of like that relationship was the one that was going to kind of carry it through as this bead of intimacy as all this stuff was happening. And to go back to like music analogies, it's I guess with this film, it probably broke into about four parts. And so that first one is like setting up themes. setting the stage for a lot of what was going to happen, but trying to do it in a way that was kind of trying to pull you forward and pull you in. And then probably the second part was to go deeper. We're going to meet a lot more of the athletes and kind of break out. more into what their values are, what they envision as where their lives are going and that kind of thing. And still kind of going back to Dan and back to Mike and seeing how all of these people are the same. And as that moves forward, then the story just gets bigger and bigger. then we're starting to just expand it and amplify it. And so it was that feeling of... almost comedy was was another part of it that started to come in, which was like it was ridiculous that this predator was just gaining more and more power. And. They just kept going and it just kept going and just kept going. You would. Just get lost. mean, the thing is, is like it's very easy to get lost in the numbers of all the. victims. so, and it wasn't just like trying to put a face on a number, it was really trying to figure out how do we keep the emotional resonance through something that just becomes incomprehensible.

Christian: Yeah, how do you make it relatable when it's so big and vast you can't even get your head around it?

Charles Olivier: Totally. a lot of it, like Eva had captured these incredible interviews ⁓ with men who hadn't let even their

Christian: They were, yeah. And they were so articulate. They were so honest. And, you know, I thought they clearly articulated some of the most difficult things in a way and personal things without embarrassment. mean, some shame was there, of course, but just strength. There was such strength there. and you see that they had to have talked among themselves and worked through a lot in order to be able to publicly in front of a camera share what they did.

Charles Olivier: Yeah, no, yeah, I totally agree with that. And for me, I think what I was happiest with were the moments in which you're just staying with somebody and letting them talk and letting them have the space to have silence and come to grips with some of that and 100 % kind of work through their feelings. And so that, think, it was like trying to open up the space for those interviews.

Christian: Yeah, I mean, that was really, that was really powerful for sure.

Charles Olivier: That's them That was me just getting out of the way.

Christian: Well, I mean, you are known for balancing like meticulous structure with emotional honesty. I mean, that is something that you have a reputation for. You know, what when you sit down with a new project, what guides you more the logic of the narrative, right, which is important or the feeling that you want people to walk away.

Charles Olivier: Yeah, sure. Sure, what I do is I get, I mean, the whole reason I kind of came into documentary is that I love. for me. So when I get into a project, I get into a project. I like, you and I read and I do all this research and what can happen in that process. And you know, as a director that it's very easy to lose sight of what some of the emotional core is. it's just totally.

Christian: Yeah, because you're getting all this knowledge like, my gosh, I learned to love this and takes you down all these alleys and you just want to keep learning and learning and learning. Yeah, I get it.

Charles Olivier: Yeah. And what I try to do, I don't have any boards up, but what I try to do is when I am structuring is, is I'm also just keeping track of what my emotional response is when I come across something. Yeah. And so I'll either make a note of what I like that this isn't for the director or anything. I mean, we might talk about it.

Christian: An interview? Yeah.

Charles Olivier: but it's really just what my sort of initial response is to something. And I think there's a point at which you come to, and this is by dint of having not done this for a long time, that you start to just trust yourself. because what will happen, and this will circle back, but is that you'll try to edit it the, in quotes, right way. Meaning like you're trying to keep somebody else's voice going and it's like, well, I think the director wants it like this. And so what I always tell directors is that like when you hire me, like where you're hiring me. you know, and so I'm going to try and trust myself and do things. And, and for sure, let's, you know, we're talking and it's not to like box them out. But, you know, it's like, when you're in it, you've got to just try not to second guess. and just to be able to create. And so what I'll do is note my responses, and then as I'm structuring, I try and lay that stuff out in a kind of logical way. Because it may have been weeks ago that I looked at some. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I I have like.

Christian: Do you put them out on a board? Like you lay all of your stories out kind of like a storyboard. You'll put.

Charles Olivier: a gazillion different little colors and like it's all very bipolar looking. mean, but for me, even if you don't kind of just go back to it, it's just the process of doing it.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Charles Olivier: just breaks you free. And like you're on your feet and you're trying to see where it's going and you'll start to find what you think is that central line that might bend here and there, but you'll start to find it. And you start to cope with that grain. And then, mean, but you are an editor. And so then you sit with the director and they said they don't like it. have to go back and do it again. But you start to then understand organically how to.

Christian: Yeah. You have to come to the table with something. Like you said, they hired you. You have to trust yourself and you come to the table with something. And as a director myself, when I hire people with a certain skill, my desire is for them to bring their own thing because we as a team are going to work together to take everybody's best stuff and we're going to put it in the soup pot and we're going to mix it all up and see what comes out because that's how you get the best stuff. you know.

Charles Olivier: Completely? Completely? No, completely. That's exactly it.

Christian: Yeah, that's best way I think. And the story you said about trusting yourself is so true and I want our listeners to understand this. You do have to know yourself well enough to say, I like this. This is good. I have a certain taste. You don't have to be like everybody else. You are your own person. and what you like and what you think is good is what's valuable. And it'll make you different than Charlie. It will make you different than Christian. And that's actually what's good because that will bring a new thing to the table. Right?

Charles Olivier: completely. And I think when people are selecting different team members for their film, you know, if they're doing it well, is that they're doing exactly what you're saying. that so, you know, one editor, one composer or one production designer, cinematographer, whoever may be right for one project and not right for the other. And as I say that, there's also, I wanna be cautious against this idea that I have my vision and world be damned. This is what we're doing because, and you hired me so too bad. It's really about... being very loose in what you're holding, you you need to like have a world and a voice that you want to lean into and then be, you know, able to go back and break it all. And that, and it sucks, you know, initially, but like a lot of the time when you get those notes, you're like, ⁓ God. And like, yeah, let's try it.

Christian: Yeah. I remember one conversation with my editor, Bill Evil, who you actually remind me a little bit of. you know, I said to him, this was when you watch my film, there's a place in there where it's at the beginning of act two. And we started with the bombs and the explosions and he gave me three big explosions. And I was like, that's great, but I really want four. And he's like, no, it's not. No, it needs to be three. And I was like, you know what I want? four. Can you please give me four? And he, and he didn't want to. And I just like, just do it, you know, and he did, and it worked, you know, and there was another instance like that where he just didn't want to do it. And I was like, please just give me the benefit of the doubt. Just do it. And he did, and it works and vice versa. It happens vice versa. But I think, you know, in a director editor relationship, it must be like that. I think.

Charles Olivier: No, completely. No, it's all. I think that is why people do keep working together.

Christian: You have to have that trust relationship to say it's okay. Yeah.

Charles Olivier: It's about Trump. Exactly. Yeah. It's about like, and it's when you get those notes and you're like, it's like you wanted it just to work. But there's probably a part of you that's like, it's probably not working. But it's like, you wanted it to work. And they said it's not working and you know, they're right. Just be wrong. Just be wrong. Just because please just love this so we can move on. But yeah, no, but it's not that.

Christian: Right. Hahaha Yeah. That's kid part of us that turns in a sloppy copy. Now, you know, this is my rough draft and you're desperately wanting to say, my gosh, that's perfect. You don't need to redo it. You know, and it's part A, I'm lazy. I don't want to redo it. And part B, I want you to think I'm so good that I don't need to rewrite anything, you know. That's funny. Okay, well, I'm gonna change the subject. We need to wrap things up pretty soon, but I want to ask you a couple of other questions.

Charles Olivier: you And that is part the case. No, that's it. No, that's completely it.

Christian: I cannot let you off the hook without telling you what it's like to work with George Clooney.

Charles Olivier: sure. so it's interesting. So with, with big name produce, I mean, they're, they're always going to be pulled in a gazillion different directions. And so the first time I met all the people was on my first zoom. And I had no idea I was meeting all these people, but so you're on your first zoom. And so it's, yeah, it's like Clooney and Grant Hasloff, his partner, and David Glasner, who's like this uber big producer. and it's just Zoom is miserable. It's just faces looking at you if you're lucky, or maybe they're kind of looking over there and it's brutal.

Christian: is

Charles Olivier: ⁓ go ahead and you're like, ⁓ okay. And it's that quiet and I do, I feel like it's flash dance where you just hear the hard soul choose on the wood and then you like, okay, dance. Come on, let's see it. And then you kind of finish your thing and no one says much and they're all like, hold on one sec. And then they like thank you and you're like, ⁓ god.

Christian: ⁓ man, I didn't get it.

Charles Olivier: I know, that's kill me, kill me now. But so then, but he was very polite. And because I mean, he's an actor, so he knows it. But when he came sort of back in, when they came back in on notes, he and Grant would kind of send them together. And The thing that I remember was at the end, he had found, he was kind of like doing his own, I guess, research and unbeknownst to anybody, but he would find these YouTube clips. And so like I would get a YouTube clip from him as like, maybe this could go. in this one section. you're like, OK, I've just got a message from George Clooney about, but it's not going to work. It's it's the wrong time. And you're like, ⁓ thank you so much. I see why you like it. And that's a different time period. And so I think we maybe don't want to do that. And then somebody else who's been CC'd on the visit, no, I think you should try that. And they're, but he didn't say anything. And, and so then you try it. and then he were back and it was like, no, you're absolutely right. doesn't work. So he was really nice, but it's like the people around him are like, no, don't, don't just just do it.

Christian: Don't.

Charles Olivier: Yeah, just do it. But he was really cool, actually. And ⁓ so for him, what it was all about was about emotion. And it was about like, sometimes people are just flat. It was when people were kind of going up in front of Congress and talking. And he was just wondering, is that something that we can look at in different colors? Are there different ways to things and and it was oh and I always found that really interesting because so he has a partnership with with a really good for Grant is always about logic and arcing and where are we going with it. And so you see how the two of them work well together. But the problem is that you get notes that are totally contradictory about the same thing. And so you would just write, oh, God. And so you just would kind of send it off to somebody else to figure out. But incredibly, incredibly cool.

Christian: Did you ever meet any of them in person?

Charles Olivier: I didn't know because I had moved, it premiered in Tribeca. And so everybody went to Tribeca. And I had already, so we were living in France at the time and I had already gone back and forth to the States. like earlier that month. And so we have little children and I'm pretty convinced my wife would have just shot me if I had gone one more time. So I didn't, I didn't, I wish I had, but I got nice notes from people. so that was, yeah, no, incredibly, I he's everything you think he is. He's a really lovely guy.

Christian: It sounded like it did well. That's great. Well, many of our listeners are emerging filmmakers and their editors kind of trying to find their voice. So what advice would you give them about shaping a powerful story in an edit?

Charles Olivier: Yeah. ⁓ shaping a powerful story in an edit room. think the thing is, mean, you've all been told, I think, the... Probably the advice that's the most annoying to hear, but it's that don't focus on the end. Really try to stay with what your story is in front of you. What I find with every project, is that as I'm working with it, I can feel myself imposing a certain idea or a certain something onto it, often because I want it to be a kind of film or I want it to be a something. And you've got to find your film. You've got to find a grain, I call it like you're cutting with the grain. Like, what are the ways that people are talking about stories who's carrying the story. And it may not be the person that you thought was carrying the story. So with Ohio State, it wasn't supposed to be Dan, who was our central character. But you start just really kind of listening to who these people are. And it's not to say that they're forward or it's really just trying to look at it as a whole. And it's like kind of coming back to it in terms of music. It's like you you want to kind of figure out how are you going to play this movie? Like who's bringing what colors? And how can it be as powerful as it can be? And the reality is that you have to just kind of keep going through it and keep working it. And. It's a process of keeping yourself fresh, really. To make a powerful movie, and thank you for, I'm not saying I've done that, but thank you for intimating it. But to make a movie that I think resonates with people is you've got to keep working at. and keeping yourself fresh so that it resonates with you. And a lot of the time it's, you know, it's bringing somebody in to watch it. And it's not even necessarily that you need their feedback. So that can really help where they're like confused or lost, but it's like, you can just feel what they're experiencing. And a lot of the time you're like, okay, this section is not working. Even if they haven't said anything, just watching it with someone or with several people. You can just feel what that is as a person. And it just kind of, it just reawakens you, I guess, is kind what the phrase would be. All the time. Yeah, as much as you can do.

Christian: Yeah, they're like little mini screenings. It's always good because you you can sense what you're, what it's doing. And I think it's really important that you watch what people's emotions are doing because that's what you're wanting. You need to gauge what you're, you know, what people are seeing and feeling. So I think that's great advice. All right. Well, we now need to move into everybody's favorite section of our podcast. Docu-View you, you deja vu? Did you documentary to recommend?

Charles Olivier: ⁓ okay. Yeah, I thought about this and the one I would recommend is this one, they came out as a pair, but this one in particular called about the fire festival, fire music festival, but the one by Chris Smith, I'm gonna hope I don't get his name wrong, but Chris Smith, that was the one that went on Netflix.

Christian: Okay. And it was a documentary and a narrative, right?

Charles Olivier: It would know it's a documentary only. So it's about the fire music festival about this fraudulent music festival that was put on by Scott Billy.

Christian: only. Okay.

Charles Olivier: And there was another one that came out a couple of days after called Firefrog on Hulu. ⁓ You can hear my son, he's being encouraged to go to bed. But the reason, if that's too distracting, that's the other reason to become an editor is that you can hide away in closed doors. But the problem is that now a lot of us work at home. But the reason I think it's worth watching is that I think it's ⁓ really well put together. It's incredibly well put Right, so there are two documentaries that came out within days of each other about the exact same event. And one of them has a sit down interview with the person who was at the center of it, who was this fraudster confidence man and has a lot of background footage and all of that. And the thing is, is that that's probably the documentary that's not as good as this other one that doesn't have all of that to me and to a lot of other people because this other one went on to win a bunch of awards and things. But what it has is that it's just incredibly well put together in terms of structure. And so I would encourage people to go watch that. it's like, and keep the structure in mind. that like when, yeah, it's by Chris Smith.

Christian: So watch the one on Netflix or watch the one on Hulu? Okay, so the one on Netflix you think is really well put together, but the one on Hulu won a bunch of awards.

Charles Olivier: ⁓ No, the opposite. So Netflix really well put together, won a bunch of awards. Hulu has lots of content. Sit Down Interview, it's still good. It's still interesting because it was like this crazy scam. But the other one is just much, it's a much better film. And I think part of the reason I think it's interesting to watch.

Christian: Interesting.

Charles Olivier: is that when you get into the kind of vertical parts of the story, when you get into the character, you see where the director and the editor earned those moments.

Christian: Okay. Now is it ⁓ the fire or F I R E or what is it? F Y R E. I thought it was F Y R E. I wanted to just clarify. Okay. Well, it has been super interesting speaking with you. I really think that our editors will benefit from your knowledge and just your way of looking at editing films. I appreciate your time. I know it's late over there in France, but it really means a lot to me and to our editors. So thank you so much for being here.

Charles Olivier: No F-Y-R-E. Of course, Christian, but thank you very much for having me.

Christian: Yeah, really is great to talk to you. Okay, we'll have you back again soon. All right, everybody, thank you so much for listening to Documentary First, where we believe everybody has a story to tell, and you can be the one to tell it. Bye, everybody.