Deep Talks with an Entertainment Lawyer, Part 1

Documentary First, Episode 248 · with Anne Easton, entertainment lawyer · 55 minutes · March 26, 2025

Listen: Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all apps · Watch: YouTube · Read: Full transcript

When should a documentary filmmaker hire an entertainment lawyer?

In Episode 248 of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor talks with Anne Easton, an entertainment lawyer at Sheppard Mullin who had just joined the Documentary First team as a producer, in particular for Heroes of Carentan. Christian plans several conversations with Anne about what independent filmmakers need to do legally from the very beginning of a project, and this is the first. It was recorded on February 26, 2025, a few weeks after Anne had to leave her home near the Palisades fire because of the ash.

Anne explains chain of title and why a distributor will want to see the contracts behind a film: life rights, appearance releases, location agreements and permission for artwork in the frame. She covers forming an LLC and paying its taxes, general liability and errors and omissions insurance, crew deal memos and work-for-hire language, how titles are cleared, and how to budget for a lawyer. Christian shares two stories from her own work: a film she made with friends from another company, where the relationship broke down during principal photography in France and there was no contract, and a non-theatrical deal with Swank that looked fine until Anne reviewed it and negotiated mutual indemnity and reserved theatrical rights.

They also talk about the emotional side of letting a lawyer slow down a deal, and how to find an entertainment lawyer through film festivals and word of mouth. During the episode Anne notes that nothing she says is legal advice: it is her opinion and her experience, and she does not represent the listeners. The points on this page are her general explanations, not advice for any specific situation.

In this episode, you’ll learn

  • What chain of title is, and why a distributor will ask for the contracts behind it
  • Which agreements Anne calls the bare minimum: releases, location agreements, crew deal memos and vendor agreements
  • Why work-for-hire language matters for editors, camera operators and anyone shooting or cutting your footage
  • Why Anne says to form an LLC and pay its taxes, and what piercing the corporate veil means
  • Why titles generally are not trademarked or copyrighted, and how the Motion Picture Association title registry works
  • How lawyers bill: hourly rates, retainers, and the 5% arrangement some talent lawyers use
  • What indemnity is, and why Anne would keep it over confidentiality or representations and warranties
  • How to find an entertainment lawyer through film festivals, events and word of mouth

Questions and answers

When should a filmmaker bring in an entertainment lawyer?

Anne Easton, an entertainment lawyer at Sheppard Mullin, says the first thing to do once you have an idea is make sure you will have the rights to make it, with a clear chain of title, because any distributor will want to see the contracts behind it. Christian Taylor adds that a lawyer matters most at the beginning, when setting up the company, partners and crew agreements, and at the end, when making deals with distributors and networks. Anne stresses that what she shares is her general opinion and experience, not legal advice.

What is chain of title for a documentary?

As Anne Easton explains it, chain of title is the set of contracts showing you have the rights to everything in your film: life rights for a biopic, releases from people who appear, location agreements, and permission from artists whose work is in a shot. Without those agreements, she says, someone can come back and claim a percentage of your revenues or part of your film, and could potentially get a copyright in some of it. Contracts are there to keep that worst case from happening.

Why do filmmakers need work-for-hire agreements?

Anne Easton gives the example of an editor: without a contract saying he worked as a work-for-hire editor, he could claim he owns 50% of your film because you wouldn't have that footage without him. Work-for-hire language means you, as the filmmaker and copyright owner, own all the results and proceeds of their work, such as footage shot on their own camera or the edit itself. She says it belongs in agreements with editors, vendors and anyone involved in the shooting.

How do you budget for an entertainment lawyer?

Anne Easton suggests basing the budget on the attorney's hourly fee and leaving room for risks you don't anticipate. As an example, she says that at $400 an hour, a basic crew deal memo might take a good attorney only 20 minutes. Some lawyers ask for a retainer up front and bill against it, and some talent lawyers take 5% of a client's earnings instead of an hourly fee. Her tip: if a clause makes you uneasy or you don't understand it, that is probably the one to have an attorney review.

What does indemnity mean in a distribution contract?

Anne Easton describes indemnity as protection tied to what each side promises in the agreement, such as owning the copyright or having the ability to enter into the contract: if a promise turns out to be false, the party who made it has to help with any claim. In Christian Taylor's deal with Swank, a non-theatrical distributor, Anne found Christian would have indemnified Swank but not the other way around, so she negotiated mutual indemnity. Asked which one clause she would keep among confidentiality, representations and warranties, and indemnity, she chose indemnity.

Chapters

  • 0:00 Introduction to Documentary First
  • 7:02 Understanding Entertainment Law
  • 20:22 The Importance of Legal Agreements
  • 28:06 Budgeting for Legal Services
  • 34:19 Understanding Indemnity and Its Implications
  • 45:12 Finding the Right Legal Representation
  • 51:20 Documentary Recommendations and Insights

DocuView Deja View picks

DocuView Deja View picks: Anne recommends three. The first is Joan Didion: The Center Will Not Hold (2017), about one of her favorite writers. Anne says she has had to stop reading some of Didion’s writing because she was trying to write like her too much.

Her second is the documentary Katharine Hepburn, which she believes is also on Netflix. Anne calls Hepburn a firecracker and a trailblazer for women in the industry, and admires how, early in her career, Hepburn realized audiences didn’t like it when good things happened to someone from an affluent background, so she took roles where her characters fell on their faces or did something silly, which humanized her.

Her third is The Jinx: The Life and Deaths of Robert Durst on HBO, which she rewatched because there is a second season. Every guest pick is in one place.

About the guest

Anne Easton is an entertainment lawyer. When the episode was recorded she had been an attorney at Sheppard Mullin for five years, acting as outside counsel to major studios and networks such as Amazon, MGM, Disney, Univision and Spotify, as well as independent media companies and talent. Her practice covers all areas of entertainment law with a primary focus on film, television and digital media: she works as a business affairs advisor, negotiates deals, and counsels on fair use, infringement and copyright law. She is also an independent producer on documentary and feature film projects, including Heroes of Carentan with Documentary First. She met Christian when both served on the board of Elise Jaffe’s documentary UnScarred. An avid yoga enthusiast, she is writing a creative nonfiction, coming-of-age book about a young woman from California moving to Saudi Arabia in the early 1980s.

More from this series

Anne Easton returns in Episode 250, Blake Lively’s Hollywood Harassment Showdown, with Entertainment Lawyer Anne Easton.

About Documentary First

For people who make documentaries and people who love them. Discover how documentaries actually get made, paid for and seen with filmmaker Christian Taylor. Plus DocuView Deja View, where every guest recommends a documentary worth watching. One week, a long-form conversation about a guest's journey, projects and lessons; the next, The Deep Dive, Christian's short solo reflection on one idea from that conversation. Guests have included Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy. Christian directed the award-winning documentary The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Nearly 300 conversations. Listen Notes top 5% worldwide. 4.8 on Apple Podcasts. New episodes every week. Follow the show · About the podcast · Support the show on Patreon

Resources mentioned

This episode is sponsored by Artillery Sports. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order.

Full transcript

Introduction to Documentary First

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Christian Taylor: Welcome to Documentary First, an inside look at documentary filmmaking. I’m your host, Christian Taylor, a documentary filmmaker myself, and I am really happy that you are here today. Well, today it is February 26th. I usually am giving the dates. We haven’t done this before in the past, but since January 21st, 2025, it is a new world. A lot of things have changed, and I really like to give a little bit of context. So, really now it’s been almost exactly 4 weeks. The world has changed a lot. We’ve interviewed a lot of different filmmakers recently. But today is going to be a little bit different. And before I introduce our lovely guest, I want to give a little bit of a company update.

So, if you’ve been listening to our podcast, you’ll know over the last year we have been very busy traveling all over the country. We’ve been doing a lot of different screenings in the US and in France, and it has been extremely busy as we’ve been sharing the message of The Girl Who Wore Freedom with as many people as possible. It’s been an incredible blessing to do in-person screenings as well as theatrical screenings, just all over the place. People have just been loving The Girl Who Wore Freedom and been blessed with that. So, we’ve been so thankful.

I’ve also been doing a lot of business things. You guys all remember maybe that I went to LA to do a special event. That event happened thanks to a young woman that I had become friends with as I worked on a board of another film, another friend’s, called UnScarred, and that film is going to be coming up. It talks about the beauty of tattooing and its wonderful benefits. So, we had Elise Jaffe on our podcast to talk about that a while back. You can look back at that episode. She’s working on that film and doing a lot of wonderful things. And I was on the board with a young lady named Anne Easton. We became friends. She invited me out to LA to meet her in person, and a lot of other people, at a wonderful law firm called Sheppard Mullin.

And so today Anne is here with us, because one of the changes that has happened at our Documentary First team is that we have added Anne. Anne has become one now of our cherished members. I learned that Anne is not just an attorney. She is far more than that. She is so much more than that. So, we have brought Anne on as a producer here at First, in particular for Heroes of Carentan, but also for much more. And I am going to let Anne introduce herself a little bit, and then I’m going to read your bio, and you’ll understand Anne’s many gifts and talents. Anne, how are you? Welcome to the show.

Anne Easton: I’m good. I’m so happy to be here with you today, and thank you so much for having me.

Christian: You are very, very welcome. So, it’s lovely to see you. I’m looking forward to talking to you today. We are going to talk about the law. The law and how it relates to, yeah, entertainment. So, we haven’t ever done this before. This is completely new. But I think it’s very important. We’ve probably waited too long to bring you into our conversation. So, all right, I want to just read your bio a little bit, because I want to lay the foundation, let people know really who you are and what you’re bringing to the table.

So, Anne has been an attorney at the firm Sheppard Mullin for the last 5 years. And if you don’t know that firm, look it up. It’s a pretty big player in the entertainment legal, you know, legal entertainment industry space. For the last 5 years she’s been there acting as an outside counsel to major studios and networks such as Amazon, MGM, Disney, Univision, and Spotify, as well as to independent media companies and talent. Anne is also currently involved as an independent producer on various documentary and feature film projects like Heroes of Carentan. Anne’s legal practice involves all areas of entertainment law, with a primary focus on film, television, and digital media.

She represents clients as a business affairs advisor, negotiating deals as she has done with us, and counseling on fair use, infringement, and copyright law. She is an avid yoga enthusiast as well. And when she’s not practicing yoga and the law or producing movies, she is writing a creative nonfiction coming-of-age book about a young woman from California moving to Saudi Arabia in the early 1980s. This is Anne Easton.

Anne: Yeah. It’s a very nice little bio.

Christian: Yeah, it is. But that’s really not all you are. I’m so happy that people on our show get to know you a little bit. So, yeah, you’re also a survivor of the fires, actually, in LA recently.

Anne: Yes, yes. Gosh, thank goodness. It was such a mess, and so much harder for so many other people. People lost their homes. I fortunately did not. But my home was right next to the Palisades fire, and I sadly had to leave because it was covered in ash. And I was part of a lot of the people who... I was renting a very lovely townhouse next to the beach. And unfortunately our landlords didn’t clean. So I left.

Christian: Yeah, I mean, in a sense you did lose your home. And I think a lot of people... that wasn’t really covered very much. I mean, you know, the fires were big in the news, yeah. I doubt that, but a lot of people don’t understand there was so much collateral damage with the smoke and with the ash, and just, yeah, it was going to be a lot for landlords to either clean it up themselves, and some did and some chose not to, and...

Anne: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, it’s quite sad what’s going on. But the good thing is that I spoke with someone at the EPA when I was at one of my many hotels that I had to stay in, and he said that they are 80%... this was maybe a couple of weeks ago, he said they’re 80% finished with phase one of the cleanup in the Palisades fire. I think they’re not as far on the Eaton fire. So, but phase one is just assessing what needs to be removed and cleaned, and phase two, they said that could take about a year. And they’re nearly at phase two. So that’s good.

Understanding Entertainment Law

Christian: Well, we do keep everyone out there in our thoughts, for sure, and our prayers. We know it’s made a big change in the film industry out there, for sure. We’re going to talk a little bit about that later on. All right, so you’re here because we are going to talk about entertainment and the law. We have a lot of listeners that are filmmakers, want to be filmmakers, and I know a lot of times people don’t think about how the law impacts their projects until they get to the end and they need to sign a deal with a distributor, or, you know, they need to write a contract with someone, and then it gets tricky. Or they’re in a business relationship with someone and all of a sudden that goes sour, and then there’s a mess and they have to figure out what to do.

So, we’re hoping that by bringing you on and doing, you know, several episodes talking with you, maybe we’ll help lay some groundwork for what independent filmmakers need to do from the very, very beginning. So, why don’t you talk to us about what you would recommend filmmakers do when they start to sit down and think, I want to make this film. This is my idea. When do they start to talk to a lawyer? When do they bring one on the project? And what are the first things that they need to consider legally?

Anne: Well, that’s a very great question, and I’m glad you’re asking it, because a lot of filmmakers don’t ask it. And honestly, the first and foremost thing you need to do is, once you have that idea, ensure that you’re going to have the rights in order to make it. And you have to ensure that you have a clear chain of title, because the point of making your film is to eventually distribute it somewhere. I know that nobody wants it to just sit on a shelf somewhere.

So, any distributor that you’re going to utilize is going to want to see a bunch of different contracts to ensure that you have clear chain of title. And that can be anything from the life rights about somebody that you’re doing a biopic about, or the releases from artists who are going to be in the film, or from background people, or from someone whose artwork is in one of the shots. I mean, the artwork that’s behind me, it would be the artist who’s painted these things. And it could be location agreements. And the crazy thing is that if you don’t have those kinds of agreements in place, someone can come back and say, “Hey, I own this, because you didn’t get a contract saying that I don’t.” And they can claim a percentage of your revenues, or even part of your film. And they could even potentially get a copyright in some of it. So, that’s the worst case scenario, and that’s why contracts help you to ensure that that doesn’t happen.

Christian: I was talking to somebody when I was in, I guess I was in Château de Balleroy in France.

Anne: Mhm.

Christian: And it’s this beautiful...

Anne: I was just in a château in France as well.

Christian: Were you?

Anne: For a writer’s retreat.

Christian: Château de Balleroy was owned by Malcolm Forbes, and it’s this amazing place where, you know, it’s got this unbelievable art and sculptures. And I was thinking about, man, wouldn’t a documentary be amazing here? And then I started asking questions about, you know, what if you did film this sculpture, and you would have to figure out, you know, what the rights were, even on that sculpture.

Anne: Absolutely. I mean, and that’s not an easy thing to do, in order to do in that...

Christian: Yeah, not always.

Anne: I mean, yeah, especially if it’s like... A good example is there was a beautiful sculpture at a château on the property, at a place that I went to, and I asked one of the groundskeepers who owned it, or who sculpted it, and they said, “Oh, we have no idea. That was, you know, years ago.” But it’s possible that the artist bequeathed that to somebody in their family, and that person in their family potentially owns the copyright to that. So, that’s why you need lawyers, because we’re in charge of finding out who owns it.

Christian: Well, and I know that not only the stuff in your film needs to be checked, and you need to make sure that you have the rights to have them in your film, but also your title. And it’s very, very important once you have a title to make sure that it’s clear to use your title. And I think, correct me if I’m wrong, going to an intellectual property lawyer is the type of lawyer you need to hire in order to go through that process. Is that right?

Anne: Well, yeah. I’m an intellectual property lawyer. And an entertainment lawyer is an intellectual property lawyer. But yes, because there are trademark implications. But titles don’t really get trademarked, and they also don’t get copyrighted. I mean, you can see that there are different films that have the same title, because maybe one of the films isn’t part of the MPAA. I believe it’s maybe MPA now. It’s the Motion Picture Association, where they essentially have all these different titles that people submit. And if you’ve submitted your title to the MPA, then no one else can use that title.

However, everyone doesn’t need to submit their titles to that. So, there are competing titles in entertainment that can sometimes be associated with your film. But it is a big deal, I guess, for someone to ensure that they clear their title, because you don’t want consumers to be confused by your title with someone else’s film that maybe was made in the ’80s, that has nothing to do with what you’ve made. You know, your action film is in 2025. I’m like, what year is it? Gosh.

Christian: 2025. Yeah. Well, and other things. I mean, I was thinking about, Anne, when I first started out, even before making a movie, one of the things that I had to do was form a company.

Anne: Mhm.

Christian: Right? I had to form a company. And I didn’t necessarily need a lawyer, but I should have had one when I decided to make a film with other people who were part of a different company.

Anne: Yes.

Christian: Now, what happened in that situation was we all decided to make a movie together, and we were all friends...

Anne: Mhm.

Christian: ...and, you know, they had their company and we had our company, and we were all going to do this together, and we were all of the same mind, and we were going to all share everything. We were all doing things with sweat equity, and everybody was going in this with good faith and agreed that on the back end we were going to, I don’t know, divide everything. And it wasn’t really much of a...

Anne: Right. And did you have an agreement?

Christian: And that didn’t really work out well. You know, when, halfway... well, in principal photography in France, there was a giant blowup, and relationships began to deteriorate, and promises were not fulfilled, and, you know, the relationship completely broke down. So then once the movie is finished...

Anne: Yeah.

Christian: ...who owns the movie? You know? And then I had to go through this terrible process of fighting this out without a contract.

Anne: So, did you have an LLC or a company when you...

Christian: I did. Yes. I had my own company. They had their own company, but we didn’t form a company together, thankfully. We didn’t have a bank account together. And I had put the film name and everything in my name, and that did save me somewhat.

Anne: Absolutely. Yeah, because you owned the copyright.

Christian: Yeah. So, I had formed the company name. I had formed the bank account. I had done all of that, and they did come alongside to help me. But still, in the end, they brought the equipment. I used their equipment. They came along as, sort of... they had the equipment and the cinematographer, and they had a lot of other things that were integral to the project. I couldn’t have done it without them.

Anne: Right.

Christian: So...

Anne: And did you have any contracts, like crew deals, or...

Christian: Not with them.

Anne: ...agreements with them, yeah?

Christian: Not with them. Yeah. But still, there was a lot of claim to what had happened. So...

Anne: Sorry, go ahead.

Christian: Yeah. What should I have done?

Anne: Well, I’m so glad you asked. This is a question that I think I’ve gotten dozens of times from clients. And you did a lot of things right. The first thing you did right was to form an LLC in order to protect your personal assets, because what an LLC does is essentially protect you, your person, and everything that you own. Like, say you have expensive artwork, or you have a home. If somebody wants to sue you and claim that they own part of your copyright, or attempts to get money out of you, they can’t touch any of your personal assets.

However, if you don’t have paperwork signed, or if you don’t pay your taxes for your LLC, which is also another thing that a lot of people don’t do, is pay their taxes for their companies. That’s not good. So, if you don’t pay your taxes, then a court could potentially pierce the corporate veil, which is a legal term of saying that they can go through your corporation that is protecting your personal assets and actually attach to your personal assets, because you haven’t paid your taxes.

Christian: Mhm.

Anne: So, the biggest things, I think, are form an LLC and pay your taxes.

Christian: Mhm.

Anne: And the second thing is, especially when you’re going into a shooting location and you’re going to be hiring people, you know, grip people and people who have equipment, and vendors, you need insurance. General liability insurance, as well as media insurance, which we call errors and omissions insurance, E&O insurance. And those can cover you for any sort of issues that may arise. However, insurance carriers generally want to see different contracts, or to know that you’ve entered into different contracts with these vendors, so that they know that they’re not going to potentially have to pay out an insurance claim.

So, also what you would need to make sure is that if you’re going to hire anybody like a crew member, which can be anyone from a production assistant to an actor... or actually, no, an actor would be an appearance release, apologies. But, or like a director of photography, or the cameraman, the cinematographer, those would be the crew deal memos. And then you definitely need those vendor agreements, because someone like that... I mean, take for instance your editor, who’s edited all of your films. If you didn’t have a deal with your editor, or a contract in place that said that he was performing as a work-for-hire editor, he could claim that he edited all of your material, you wouldn’t have that footage without him, and he owns 50% of your film because of that.

So, the other thing that you need to ensure that you have, for any type of person like that, an editor, a vendor, or somebody who is involved in the actual shooting process, is to have work-for-hire language for those professionals. And work-for-hire language essentially just means that you, as the filmmaker and the owner of the copyright, would own all of the results and proceeds of their work. And the results and proceeds are them shooting on the camera that they own, you know, or them editing your film. So, those are just basic things.

The Importance of Legal Agreements

Anne: And the other thing that would be necessary, and I think that this was something in your film, is that you had a lot of background people, I think, in your film. And it’s not always necessary to get each one of those background people to sign something, but you could get some sort of a group agreement, where everybody who walks in there sees, you know, a poster that says, “We’re filming here. If you don’t want to be in the shot, please let us know, but otherwise you are agreeing to be on film as a background person.” And those typically help you, and then a court would see that you did your due diligence in order to ensure that other people’s privacy rights were protected.

But the other one is artists. Anyone that’s in your film that obviously wasn’t you, you would need to have some sort of an appearance release, so that you would own their image and likeness that you shoot in the film. And those are just like the bare minimum things that should be done.

Christian: Yeah, and I think, you know, a lot of people... there are a lot of agreements flying around the internet. There are crew deal memos, there are, you know, vendor deals, there are all sorts of agreements that you can just pull off the internet. Or people say, “Hey, did you have a crew deal memo on your shoot that I could use on my shoot?” Like, I hear a lot of that going around, because people don’t want to hire a lawyer. Right? People don’t want to hire a lawyer, and everybody’s trying not to hire a lawyer. It’s very expensive, Anne.

Anne: Mhm. I know. I know it is.

Christian: To hire a lawyer.

Anne: I know. And the better the lawyer gets... I mean, I don’t know if I totally believe this, but the better the lawyer gets, the more expensive they are. But I’m not sure I totally believe that concept. I think that you can find great lawyers that are reasonable in price. However, the idea that lawyers are too expensive is frustrating to me, because we worked really hard for a long time in order to gain the knowledge that we have in order to protect you, and we also had to sit for the bar exam. We also have huge risks that we have to take, because every time we give somebody advice, we’re essentially putting ourselves on the line, in the sense that I could lose my license. I could get sued for malpractice if you think that I’ve given you terrible advice, or if I’ve done not the job that you wanted, or if I didn’t win a case or something. And I think that it’s warranted to pay your attorney for their services, because they are working very hard for you, and they do have a set of skills and knowledge that is worth putting into your budget, essentially, when you make a film.

Christian: Yeah, and I think I have learned from experience the hard way that, just like... another thing I learned from experience the hard way is, an archival producer is something, if you’re going to make documentaries, having an archival producer is a person that you really need on the project from the very beginning.

Anne: Mhm.

Christian: It’s something that a lot of people add maybe at the end, or think about at the end, but I really firmly believe it’s something that you should consider adding to your budget at the beginning, and, you know, bringing them in to help you create your film. And it’s the same with an attorney. I think you just have to build that into your budget. Now, that’s hard to do. And how do you build an attorney’s fee into your budget? I mean, you know you need one from the beginning. So, if you’re working with anybody, if you are coming to the table and you are working in any creative way with anybody else, you really should have some sort of, you know, deal. Some sort of written deal, right? It can be very simple. But how then do you bring a lawyer in, and how do you budget for them?

Anne: Well, I mean, that’s an interesting question. I think that it takes time, obviously, because if you need to budget for it... Obviously I’ve worked with really big studios who are always trying to find a way to pay less for legal fees. However, they don’t pay less. I mean, we have really big retainers that essentially cover all of our legal services for a year. But think about how long it takes you personally to go through a contract and try to understand what it says. And if you’re reading a contract and something makes you feel uneasy, that’s probably the clause that you need to have an attorney look at. If you don’t understand something in that contract, you probably need to have an attorney look at it.

And, I mean, if you look at, say, your attorney’s services are $400 an hour, the attorney that you found. If you think about it, if that’s a good attorney who’s been practicing for a while, and they tell you on a consultation call that it’s a basic crew deal memo, it won’t take them that long. It may, once they get into it, take them longer than they expected, but it also could take them 20 minutes. So, you’re only paying 20 minutes’ worth of that $400. And if you’re going to be budgeting for that, budget for possible risks, like that could happen, and things that could arise that you don’t anticipate, essentially.

So, I would base it off of what that attorney’s hourly fee is, or if they potentially are offering you a retainer, where you pay a certain amount up front, and then they, you know, meet that hourly fee. Or if you’re a smaller company, sometimes, actually, talent lawyers, instead of charging you an hourly fee, they actually take 5% of your revenues, or whatever amounts you make. Like, say you’re a producer on a film or something; if you make $40,000 an episode, then your attorney, in negotiating your deal for that television show, would get 5% of your 40,000 per episode. And that is actually more desirable to a lot of talent, because then they don’t have to pay that money up front. But if you don’t have an ongoing way to pay the attorney in that regard, where they could take your profits or something, then you do need to consider doing an hourly basis.

Christian: Yeah, and typically, you know, the way that I’ve worked with attorneys in the past, they asked for a retainer.

Anne: Mhm.

Christian: You know, some sort of retainer, and then that retainer is whatever amount it is, and then that goes toward the hours, the initial hours that you need them. So...

Anne: Right.

Christian: ...and the jobs that you ask them to do, they will then bill against that retainer. And then once you meet that, then you go, you know, hour by hour. Is that correct?

Budgeting for Legal Services

Anne: Yes. Yes, correct. And then, I mean, you can ask for the same situation again, where you say, “Okay, well, we’ll do a bigger retainer now,” so that it doesn’t have to be like a weekly billing situation, because that gets uncomfortable, especially when you’re working so closely with your client. You don’t want to have to say, “Hi, you haven’t paid your bill. It’s been 3 weeks.” Because at the end of the day, just like you want to make some profits off of your film, we also have to make a living and ensure that we can pay our bills.

And it is so important to have an attorney look over some of these things, not even just because it’s important to make sure that you feel protected and you can go to sleep at night knowing that your copyright isn’t in danger, but it’s helpful in the sense that you might not have known to negotiate something, and have known to put something in that contract, that could potentially hurt you or was benefiting the studio. And, I mean, that happens all the time. And I promise you that they’re not intending to take money away from you as a talent individual, but they are betting that you don’t know that you could ask for certain things that would benefit you.

And, I mean, here’s just a very small example. I had a client who’s a really great director, and he’s directed a few different films, but he recently just directed, I think he directed two of four action films. And in his contract, that was done by an attorney that he was working with as a producer for another production company, it actually said in his agreement that even once there’s been a press release about the film and it’s been publicized, he still has to go to the studio or the production company and ask them for permission to talk about the movie at all. And usually, that’s basically like a small little thing that entertainment lawyers would understand: that if there’s been a press release about the film already, then the director of the film should be able to talk about it in personal publicity.

And because of that, he couldn’t do anything. His hands were completely tied, and he wasn’t able to go on a podcast to promote a certain film that would help his career. He couldn’t do a couple of different interviews. And it’s really hard as the attorney, looking at a deal and having to tell your client, “I’m sorry, I didn’t help you with this deal, and you can’t do any publicity that will help your career,” on some films that ended up being really popular.

Christian: Yeah, that’s rough. Well, just as a personal example, I mean, there are times, I think, in the filmmaking process that you need a lawyer, you know, more urgently. And I think there are seasons where you don’t really need them. And so, in the beginning, when you’re getting everything spun up with your company, with your partners, with your team members or the crew that you’re hiring, I think a lawyer is really integral in drafting those agreements, checking the chain of title, making sure that your company is set up properly, making sure everything is buttoned up in the beginning. I think that’s really important.

Location agreements are another thing. Making sure that your agreements protect your company in the way that you want them to, so that it’s not just some stock thing taken off the internet, because you know that you need to have those, and people just go on the internet and get them off, and, okay, I’ve checked it off my box. But truthfully, if you don’t have somebody that knows the law in your area, it could be a problem. And I think it’s important: every state has different laws. That’s number one. And the United States laws are different than they are in France. That’s another thing I’ve learned.

Anne: Yeah.

Christian: International laws are different than the ones here, and so it’s important that you are working with a lawyer that understands all of those nuances. So, in the beginning, I think that’s important. If you’re traveling and you have overseas issues, it’s important, I think, to have a lawyer on call. And again, that retainer, I think, comes in really important, because if you run into any issues where you need to pick up the phone and call a lawyer, you have one on call.

In the end, when you are trying to make your deals with distributors, or you are then making any deals with any networks or things like that, a lawyer is critical, because then you’re receiving contracts. And you’re receiving contracts also for other things. Let’s say you’re sending it out and you need to have a colorist look at your film, and they send you their contract. It’s really important to send that to an attorney for them to look at before you sign theirs.

We just did a deal with Swank. Swank is a non-theatrical distribution company. Seemed like a no-brainer deal. My company looked at this agreement. Everybody’s like, “Well, it looks okay.” And so, we were about ready to sign it until I met Anne Easton, and it was right about this time where she said, “Well, let me take a look at that.” And unfortunately, or fortunately, I did let her take a look at that.

Anne: Yeah.

Christian: And what was so interesting, this process was fascinating for me, and I think we should use this as an example. What happened? I let you look at the agreement, which we thought was just fine, and I was about ready to sign, and what happened?

Understanding Indemnity and Its Implications

Anne: Well, I looked at a lot of stuff, namely that, actually, you know, we shouldn’t say that... Well, first of all, I’m going to say very quickly, which we should have maybe disclaimed at the beginning: anything that I say here is not legal advice. This is just my opinion. I don’t represent any of you. And this is just how I’ve handled things in the past, and this has been my experience. Secondly, I have represented Christian in the past, and in this Swank deal. And in order to protect Swank, as well as Christian, and my professional responsibility, I’ll say that there was a lot of information in this contract that made me worried that you were not going to get paid, essentially.

Christian: Well, there were a lot of them.

Anne: Yeah, which is kind of the biggest deal. And you were basically going to indemnify them for anything that they did. And I didn’t like any of that.

Christian: What does the word indemnify mean?

Anne: Indemnity is a way that we are protected based on the obligations that are represented in the agreement. So, if you’ve said that I own the copyright, I have the ability to enter into contracts, I have the ability to do XYZ, if any of that turns out to be false, you indemnify each other, essentially, in order to ensure that if there’s any claim against either one of you, then you can utilize their ability, or they have to help, essentially, in any claim.

And you were basically going to have to indemnify them, and they weren’t going to indemnify you. So, I ensured that there was mutual indemnity. Which sometimes doesn’t happen, but I think that when there’s a distributor and a big production company, it should be more common, I think. But it’s tough sometimes to get a big studio to indemnify a small-level actor, or like a smaller producer or something, because that tends to be, you know, a big give.

But otherwise, I also just saw that the biggest thing was the fact that I had no idea how or when you were going to be paid. And I also wanted to ensure that you had reserved rights, because you, with your film, are constantly distributing it, or you’re screening it at different theaters. And last year was, I think it was, the 80th anniversary of the D-Day landings and World War II, and so you had, I think you said, 300 screenings all over the country, and then in France as well, which is absolutely incredible.

But the way that the contract was structured with Swank, who is a distributor that doesn’t do theatrical distribution... They do distribution at very interesting things. It was something new that I hadn’t really experienced. They distribute in schools and educational places, but then also in hospitals and in prisons, and all of these different places. Yeah, which is really, really very interesting. But I ensured that we put in there that you had the theatrical rights reserved. And a lot of people would think that that’s not important, because it’s like, oh, well, that’s implied. You’d think that it’s implied, but it’s much better to put something like that into the contract, so that if they find out that you’re streaming it somewhere, or you have it somewhere...

And maybe, I mean, here’s a really great example: they’re showing it at museums, right? I think that was one of the places. You showed it at a museum with me in Savannah. And I wanted to ensure that anytime that you screened your film, you were not in violation or breaching the license that you were giving them in order to distribute your film. So, those were really small things that a lot of people wouldn’t think of, but to me they were big, essentially.

Christian: Right. And so, what was interesting for me in this whole process is that bringing a lawyer into the conversation really highlighted for me we don’t really understand the language of things. We don’t understand the language, because it’s not my field, and I don’t understand the risks and vulnerabilities, because I haven’t studied the law.

Anne: Right.

Christian: And so, as creatives, I think, you know, that’s why I’m doing this podcast. I want you to understand out there that it’s truly important that you don’t just grab something off the internet and think that you’re covered. I had a contract that was given to me by a distributor that a whole group of people, you know, sat and looked at, smart people that had business degrees, that were producers, and we all looked at this contract, and we all thought it was a fair contract. And we gave it to Anne, and she saw all of these loopholes in there that put us at risk.

Now, it wasn’t horrible, and it wasn’t that this company was trying to take advantage of us in any way. It was just that it was really a basic agreement that they had been doing with a lot of people for a long time, that they had not really taken much time to, you know, look at recently. And Anne looked at it and saw all of the places that there were vulnerabilities for us, and wanted to make sure that we were protected, and that it was specific to our situation, to make sure that we were protected.

Now, what was interesting is, as I went through this process, and she had all of these redlines on our contract, which made me really nervous when I saw that...

Anne: Yeah.

Christian: I was scared that I was going to lose this deal.

Anne: Yes.

Christian: And so, emotionally, there was this really interesting thing that happened, where I kept saying, “Well, let’s...” because it was taking a long time. It was taking a long time. They weren’t getting back to us quickly. I felt like you saying we weren’t just going to sign it right away was putting us at risk. You just kept saying to me...

Anne: What was I... I kept saying, I said, “If they’re still at the table, they want your film. I can assure you they’re talking to me right now because they want your film. You are going to assist in their whatever slate that they have.” And I think that people will want to watch it, and it’s a very uplifting film.

And I think that as attorneys, I’ve realized, and I sort of realized this a few years ago, that for my independent individual production company clients, but also for my larger clients, where I’m helping other attorneys as outside counsel for these bigger studios, I generally work directly with the legal department, and sometimes with the business affairs department. And even with the legal department, who are other attorneys, I have to basically walk them through it and explain, “This is why it’s going to be okay. This is what’s going on. This is what the opposing counsel said. I know that you don’t want to give this. I know that we generally don’t give this, but this is why I think we should.” And so much of it is, I don’t like to say this, but hand-holding, and acting as a therapist in a certain way.

Christian: It felt that way, because it felt very emotional to me, weirdly. And I felt like you were walking me through, because I kept wanting to go, “Let’s just give it to them. Let’s just say we’ll do this. Let’s just agree to...” And you’re like, “Just sit tight. Just sit tight. Just wait. It’s going to be fine.” And it was really hard for me. And in the end, you were right, and they did sign the contract as you had written it. And I think you kept saying, “This is just boilerplate language. This is really the way that it should be. This shouldn’t be too hard for you guys to accept.” And you did a lot of the work for them to rewrite the contract. So...

Anne: Yeah, I did. I gave them a lot of great language, in my opinion.

Christian: Yeah. And so, in the end, I think maybe there was one thing that they did not accept.

Anne: Yes. So, I actually, I don’t like what I didn’t accept, but you really wanted to get the contract signed. And I actually was asked this in an interview once, and I’m not sure how much your audience will understand this, but I’m going to give everybody the benefit of the doubt that you will. So, I was asked this in an interview: if I had to give up two things and I could only have one of these clauses, which one would I give up? And the question was, if I had confidentiality, representations and warranties, and indemnity, which one would I definitely need to keep if I couldn’t keep the rest of them? And I said indemnity.

Because it basically, as I said before, ensures that everything that’s said in the contract is true, and I have the ability to sue if it isn’t. And I can sue anybody, essentially, attached to it, or I can be indemnified by you for any claims against me for doing something inaccurate, and I acted based on whatever your representation was. And even if you don’t have representations and warranties that are mutual, in the sense that, for the filmmaker, essentially, they are helping you and ensuring that the studio or the distributor has repped and warranted the same things that they’re asking you to rep and warrant, which is that, oh, I have the ability to enter into this contract, I own the copyright, there are no lawsuits against me, I think that the indemnity is the most crucial thing that you need to have in that contract. And, I mean, that was my advice, I think, for you, in that sense.

Christian: And they agreed to that?

Anne: And they did, yes. They agreed to that one. They agreed to mutual indemnity, and I had to remove a lot of the reps and warranties that you were offering. But so, as an attorney also, when you look at those types of deals, you realize you have to basically weigh what your client wants, what the opposing counsel is doing, even if you think that it’s unreasonable, and you assess what the risk is and how big of a risk you’re going to take. And if I have to take a risk, I’m going to take the risk in dropping reps and warranties versus indemnity. And I know tons of lawyers who would probably disagree with me, and I would love to debate you on this.

Finding the Right Legal Representation

Christian: Oh, that’s awesome. Well, I would love to hear it, so I could learn more. I mean, I think this just goes to show there’s just so much that we as creatives and artists don’t really understand. And I will say, once we did have the contract signed, there was this sense of great relief, and just confidence that I had, knowing that I had a solid contract, that I was protected, and I did not need to fear anything.

And then I had another contract that I needed with this 72 Films, this, you know, Fremantle corporation, where they recently wanted to look at my, you know, film for possible use in an upcoming Netflix series. And I had another contract that came out of the blue that I needed you to look at. And it was sort of the same thing: truthfully, having someone with all of that knowledge to look at contracts, that level of confidence, you can’t beat it. So...

Anne: Yeah.

Christian: You know, I guess...

Anne: It’s worth the cost sometimes.

Christian: Yeah, the cost. Yeah, so I mean, the point of this podcast, I think, really is that lawyers are worth the money that you have to pay for them. And you need to set aside that in your budget from the very beginning.

Anne: Mhm.

Christian: And you need to develop a relationship with one, I think, from the very beginning. Now, a lot of people don’t know how to find a lawyer. How do they do that?

Anne: Well, I mean, you found me through connections, which I think was great. But that’s a really great question, because I think that a lot of my friends who are actors and writers and directors do have trouble finding an attorney that’s kind of like me. I mean, I work at Sheppard Mullin, but I also have consulted with different clients on the side, and I think I’m friendly in the sense that I’m willing to kind of tell it to you straight. But a lot of it really happens, and you really do meet a lot of really great attorneys, by going to events.

Because attorneys know that people are looking for good attorneys. And I love going to film festivals, because I love being a part of this community. And obviously I’m also working with you as a producer, and I love producing. I’m writing a book, so I feel creative in certain ways. So I think that a great way to actually meet attorneys is at a film festival. My client that I was just talking about, a director, I met him at a film festival, you know, a bunch of years ago, and he was a friend, and then he became my client years later when he needed help.

Christian: Mhm.

Anne: And I think that it’s through word of mouth a lot of times. I mean, if you have a friend who’s also a filmmaker, ask them who their attorney is and if they like their attorney. Unfortunately, I hear a lot that people don’t like their attorneys. And the common complaint is, “Gosh, you know, I like her,” or “I like him, and they do really great work, but I can never get a hold of them.”

Christian: Yeah.

Anne: And it’s because we’re very busy, and we want to get back to you, I promise. It’s just we’re very busy sometimes.

Christian: You know, and I do think it is difficult a lot of times to find people that are relational, in a sense. I think you are a special person, where you do care genuinely about people that you work with, and you develop the relationship alongside of the business part of it. I think you understand, sort of, that in the entertainment world you are working with creatives, and that is a little bit different than working with regular business people. And I think that’s what makes you a great entertainment, you know, attorney. So maybe you can act as a resource if people are interested in looking for real estate attorneys. I mean, real estate... entertainment attorneys.

Anne: I know real estate attorneys too.

Christian: All right, yeah. So, can people contact you if they are interested in learning more?

Anne: They can email me, if you want to put that in the show notes. Or they can... I don’t want you to call me, but you can email me.

Christian: Yeah. So, how about, do you want to use Anne at Documentary First?

Anne: Yeah, I mean, I could, but I could also use my consulting...

Christian: Yeah. Which one do you want to use?

Anne: Email. Either one. Do you want me to say it right now?

Christian: We’re going to put it in the show notes, too.

Anne: Okay, so it’s A. Easton, E-A-S-T-O-N, at Blakemore, which is my middle name, B-L-A-K-E-M-O-R-E, dash law, L-A-W, dot com. And so you know that that is not my legal work. It’s just consulting, for, you know, kind of business affairs consulting. But otherwise, you can reach me at Sheppard.

Christian: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you very much for this time today, and we are going to have you back on, because there’s just so much more, I think, we can dive into. And we really appreciate you being here, part of Documentary First. We look forward to talking to you more about so many different things. So, thank you so much for being here today.

Documentary Recommendations and Insights

Christian: Now, I do wonder, did you come prepared to share a documentary with us, one of your favorites?

Anne: Oh, the...

Christian: Think about it for a second.

Anne: Yeah, I mean...

Christian: Because this is our segment, DocuView Deja View.

Anne: Well, honestly, I watched...

Christian: Okay, hang on. Hang on. Hang on. I’ve got to give the intro for Jason. Okay, here we go. This is everybody’s favorite segment, DocuView Deja View. All right, now you can go. Anne, do you have a favorite documentary to share?

Anne: I don’t have one. I have several. I love documentaries. There was a documentary that was made about Joan Didion recently. She is one of my favorite writers. I’ve had to stop reading some of her writing, because I’m attempting to write like her too much. And she was just an absolutely incredible woman. Loved that recent documentary. I think it’s on Netflix.

Christian: Yeah, I saw that one, too. It’s really good.

Anne: Yes. And then Katharine Hepburn was one of my favorite actresses. Absolutely adore her. And they have, I think also on Netflix, a documentary about Katharine Hepburn and her life. And she was such a firecracker.

Christian: Yeah.

Anne: And, I mean, a trailblazer, too, for so many women in that industry. And something I really do love about her is that she realized at one point, early in her career, that because she came from an affluent background, audiences didn’t like it when good things happened to her. So she took roles, and did certain things in her roles, that were still women who good things happened to, to kind of fall down on her face, or do something very silly. And she found that people really enjoyed that, and she kind of ran with that. And it helped her career in a certain way. And I think that was a great way to take advantage of the fact that it humanized her, in a certain way.

Christian: Yeah. Humanized her, for sure.

Anne: Yeah. And then the other one that I rewatched recently, because I think there’s a second season of it, is The Jinx on HBO, with Robert Durst. Gosh, he killed a lot of people and tried to hide it. And one of them was his best friend, Susan Berman. And in the documentary, at the very end, you know, you go through the six episodes of all these different things, and they’re bringing you to this suspense at the last episode. In the last episode, he basically doesn’t realize that his mic is still on when he’s in the bathroom, and he admits to killing everybody.

Christian: Yeah.

Anne: And so he’s now in prison.

[Editor’s note: Robert Durst was convicted in 2021 of the murder of Susan Berman and sentenced to life in prison. He died in January 2022, before this episode was recorded.]

Christian: So this is all real?

Anne: Yeah, this is all real. Look it up, The Jinx.

Christian: Oh my goodness gracious, now you’ve told us the end.

Anne: I’m sorry. Spoiler alert.

Christian: Yeah, you will have to put a spoiler alert in this.

Anne: Yeah. I apologize.

Christian: And so great to have you. Anyway, thank you for being here. It’s really great to see you. We can’t wait to have you back. Everybody, thank you so much for listening to Documentary First, where we believe everybody has a story to tell, and you can be the one to tell it. Bye, everybody.

Anne: Thank you.

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