Heather O'Rourke Documentary: The Film Her Family Trusted

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Death was completely preventable. Sometimes things happen, you know, a car accident or someone gets sick, and those are horrible tragedies. But when something like her, where it was a misdiagnosis and could have been corrected with a simple surgery, that just does not sit well with you all these years later because She should be here, especially all this time that's gone by, all this life that never happened. It was really not so much just a film about a child star, it was really a film about loss. Hi everybody and welcome to Documentary First, an inside look at documentary filmmaking. I'm your host and a documentary filmmaker myself, Christian Taylor. Today I'm sitting down with Brian Pocrass, a USC Film School graduate and a seasoned entertainment professional. He's here to talk about his new film, She Was Here. Welcome, Brian. It's really great to have you here. Well, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me. You have produced a range of projects across television film, digital media before you made a career shift. To become a personal injury attorney. Now, this movie, She Was Here, marks your return to filmmaking out of a purpose. This documentary fulfills a personal promise, as Heather O'Rourke's story has resonated with you since childhood. You worked closely with Heather's family and friends and with access to rare personal archives, including diaries, letters.

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And legal records. You helped ensure her story was told with care, clarity, and authenticity. And I have to tell you, I'm a little wuss and I don't watch scary movies whatsoever. I have never seen Poltergeist, and I was tempted to watch it, but I tried and just could not. It's just too scary for me. But I did enjoy your documentary and learning about this story. I thought you did a masterful job of. Treating this whole subject very tenderly. Tell us a little bit about where you grew up and how you became a filmmaker. I grew up in the Los Angeles area. I went to USC film school. After working in the entertainment industry for many years, I decided to make a career shift into law and went to I went back to law school. And when this opportunity presented itself, which was really just a two-man team, it was just me and my producing partner, Nick Bailey. And Heather's story was something I had a real strong personal connection with. And that's when it starts with documentaries. You need to have that personal connection to the material to be able to tell a story. Well, tell me about that personal connection. Well, funny enough, Heather was my childhood crush and she passed away when I was nine years old. So I and it's in the crazy thing is I didn't even know her from Poltergeist, because obviously I was so young. We had this Disneyland special called Believe You Can and You Can that she had done when they reopened the new fantasyland. And We had that on VHS and I used to watch it all the time and funny enough, Poltergeist II was on cable a lot.

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I remember at the time I would watch that a lot and she looked my age at that time. So that's kind of the Heather that I connected with. So funny enough, I didn't hadn't even seen the first film, and that's like her most iconic movie. And so I remember clearly coming home from school that day and hearing on the radio in the carpool that she had passed away. And that just kind of hit me really hard as a nine year old because It was one of those like first moments I ever experienced death and especially the death of a child, it didn't quite make me understand. I didn't I just very confused. So I think that Heather's story just for some reason throughout the years is always I've always held on to it because when you lose someone, you feel that loss, you feel that Trauma a little bit. And it was something I just, you know, never really discussed with many people, obviously at that age, didn't really understand what happened. And as the years have gone on and I Went into the entertainment industry and I ever came across somebody who worked with her, I would always ask them about her and what was she like and what was it like working with Her. I wanted to know about her what happened to her always fascinated me as a kid. And as she got sick or could I die or can someone die? So I mean there's a lot of trauma that you know was part of the caring of that story. I've always just been fascinated by it. And then as I saw, you know, in the last decade or so how she became a target for rumors during the pandemic, a Nick Bailey had me on his podcast. When I was doing research, I saw he had Heather's sister on his show.

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And then we kind of talked together and said, wouldn't it be great to do a documentary on her? We reached out to the family and we're going through Heather's sister. And she said no. She said no, thanks. Like we're good. Cause you know, the family is incredibly guarded. And Tammy is the gatekeeper. And after she said no, I came up with a different pitch to see if we can do this. And they were listening and they were thinking, okay, that sounds interesting. And then we went out to Las Vegas to meet with them in person and they agreed to do this with us when you're holding This trust that somebody has, because I mean the family, like I said, is very guarded. They're not very Hollywood at all. And Hollywood's been not very nice to them, or mainly Heather's mom, for the last thirty-eight years since Heather passed away. A lot of times they will reach out to them and they've asked them to do a couple little things on Heather, and each time they don't do exactly what they say they're gonna do. For example, they'll interview Heather's mom and say we're gonna do something on Heather and she'll talk probably for half hour, forty five minutes, and they'll only air the part Where she talks about her death. Or they make it about the Poltergeist curse. Or there was an incident that happened with a Direct TV commercial about, you know, about five years prior to when we reached out to her, where Direct TV reached out to her and Said, Hey, we're gonna do a commercial and we're gonna use her likeness, kind of like we're gonna one of those recreation things they were doing. And they said, Would you would that be okay if we used her likeness?

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And she said, Think that'd be a nice tribute. Sure. You can do that. And so they did the commercial and then it got all this backlash of family, a money grab, how they How can they do this to a dead child? And of course, she's sitting here thinking, I didn't do anything. For one thing, they didn't pay me. Another thing, I thought it would be a nice tribute. And all of a sudden, now I'm being attacked. And so she had that attitude of I'm just not going to do anything anymore. I mean, this is like every time it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. I, you know, came to understand why and just understanding the beast in this role of making this film, you kind of play part therapist. You have to be kind of tricky when you're dealing with a family, because you also, on one end, you're making a film. But you hold that integrity. You hold what you wanna set out to do. And I think the fact that it took so long for us to make is when you don't have a studio behind you and you don't have a lot of money behind you, it'll take a while. But the plus of that is that I don't have any mandates. I don't have any studio I'm who's asking me, you got to do this, you gotta do that. When you do a passion project, you just kind of do it the way you wanna do it. And then that was really my attitude because I didn't have any pressure. I'm an attorney, I'm doing this for a specific purpose. And if it doesn't turn out this way, I'm just not gonna do it. To clarify, when you said she was your childhood crush, in that you didn't know her personally, but you were watching what she was on and you thought, you know, she's Wonderful, I love her Just like a lot of kids do.

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They have a Hollywood crush. Is that what we're talking about? Total Hollywood crush. I didn't know her personally. She was this adorable little girl. Even though she's a few years older than me, she looked so young, so I didn't know how old she was. And thought she was very sweet. This was obviously before the internet and before social media, anything I ever knew about her. You'd read in like a magazine or an interview or an article. And I knew that they were filming a third poltergeist movie. And that's about it. And then all of a sudden I heard on the radio that she passed away. What's Beautiful is that you did actually get to know her and you got to know her family. This was probably a wonderful way to work through that. I can see that tenderness in this film that you wanted to honor that family. I think you should be very proud of that. Now, is that the impetus like, okay, now is the time. It's gonna pull me out of this legal world. Now is the time to do this. It's a promise I've made myself, yes, to someday do this, but now is the time. This is the tipping point. Yeah, definitely. And it helped that it was during the pandemic, so I was able to kind of step away. So it was good because not really the heart of the pandemic. It was more, I believe, twenty one is when we filmed a lot of the interviews, kind of into twenty-two. And so it was really the good timing. I kind of made some time in my schedule to do it and I really jumped into it because I had so much personal knowledge already on Heather.

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We were able to do things and the access that the O'Rourke family gave us. There was a lawsuit that happened after Heather passed and And after that lawsuit, everything of Heathers was pretty much put into boxes and put into storage. We got to actually go into storage, take it out, and look through all these things, her backpack from when she when she passed away that week. So it's getting to see this time capsule and absorb everything. And when you're in that research phase of learning everything about your subject or learning about the story, it's just this extensive thing where you're reading everything. And also I had all the depositions that were taken during the Lawsuit, which was which acted as a time capsule because there are interviews from 1991, and it was like talking to people who had given depositions, and a lot of times they Didn't remember certain details that were, you know, over 30 years ago, and then you remember, you said in depositionist, and they're yeah, I forgot about that. That is true. You know, she was like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's it really was a great tool to do that. Cause I think just when you're telling the story and you're trying to figure out what a story is, even when you're telling a biopic. It's a living, breathing creature. So I think that what I've learned was you really have to become the expert on the story. Because if there's things that you're not sharing in the story, you need to have that inside to be able to know how to tell the story correctly.

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And that's like the big thing about documentary making is the responsibility of tem telling someone else's story. And that was something that really weighed on me throughout the entire process because that was a huge responsibility. Heather can't speak for herself. Had to constantly ask ourselves whether we're honoring her properly and whether we're telling the story properly. And that's really something throughout the entire process, especially the editing process. Is this coming across the way that we want it to come across? Yeah, exactly. Now I want to talk about this craft of trust that you're talking about. I want us to help other filmmakers learn how we can earn access to this most painful chapter in someone's life. You have to Handle it with integrity. How do we do this? And with Kathleen O'Rourke, Heather's mom, she gave you access to those diaries, the letters, this time capsule, the home videos, the medical and legal records. That's an extraordinary level of trust. So walk me through how you were able to develop that from someone who's like Hollywood has totally burned me. I don't want to let anybody in, and especially after they gave you an initial no. How did you go from that to you're in the backpack that she was carrying the week she died? Takes a while. It's not something that happens overnight. It's something that builds. And of course, even at the beginning and even maybe even towards the end, you always felt that there was a little bit of not distrust, but you had to you know a lot of Communication, which sometimes is good, sometimes is bad.

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It's hard because as a producer There's only so much you can share with your subject. And a lot of times they don't understand how the sausage is made. And there were times I'm sure they were upset with me because if they saw early cuts and saw things that were cut out and it's hard to justify some of those, I just knew in my Heart that I always had Heather's best interest first, always. And even if there were times where, you know, when they would ask like for updates, it's always hard but everyone's always wanting updates and sometimes things take a while. And of course this film took a long time to come out. Took about four or five years, went through different edits and also just like, you know, different when we had to go through legal and not be able to license this clip and that Clip. So then it kind of changes the whole flow of everything. So it's a it just was a big process when there's a small team. And of course there were lots of temptations while we were trying to sell it because everyone wanted to sensationalize our story. We actually had one opportunity where we pitched it to a A pretty lucrative production company and they were interested, but they didn't want to give us creative final approval. And that I know is a is a typical thing that places won't give unless I'm, you know, a major filmmaker. But at the same time, I can't risk, you know, anyone taking this and doing this to the family. I mean, it was one of those things where I don't care how much they tell me, we promise we're not going to exploit or because it was such a trust thing with the family that we And you just needed someone really protecting Heather's story.

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It's real easy to take the easy route of talking about Poltergeist curse or talking about rumors that are surrounding her, especially the ones that have come out online in the last Decade that are just completely false. And so I think it's the but the trust, how you build it is you just have to really have that integrity in you. Was there ever a time where you almost lost the trust or you felt like it was broken or you went a little bit too far and you had to come back or you had to Apologize for anything. How would you handle that? Well, I think this happens maybe with any documentary process where I think all of us, you know, me, Nick, and the Auror family, probably all at separate times, had that moment, Okay, I'm done. I'm I'm not doing this anymore. There's those moments that happen, I had it. I had it at one point. It's a hard thing when you're working with a lot of people. And I think that there definitely were times maybe where they got frustrated, whether it was with us or with the just how long it was taking. Or maybe with an edit that was made that they weren't happy about, or just something. So definitely there were times that they weren't happy. I don't know if the trust was completely broken, because I never did anything or we never did anything that would show any violation of trust. But you know, sometimes it was just such a tricky dance. Cause it's like sometimes they would find out something that we hadn't told them yet, but because I'm the producer, I'm trying to I'm trying to spare them of certain Details just as we're trying to sell the film, get it going.

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The biggest moment that I had that I didn't realize was coming was when we had our first screening and we just invited everyone that was that was part of the movie and people who Would give it interviews. And we just kind of had in the room for the first time ever all these people who are connected to Heather, people who worked with her, her teachers, her friends from school. And it was just so magical thirty eight years later coming together to celebrate her. And we had this Q and A afterwards and they People from the audience were like talking and asking questions and sharing something. And there was just so much love given for her at this moment. And it's just one of those things where I was like driving home from that. And it just kind of hit me really hard that I kind of did this for Heather. Like, I mean, this was something that kind of like a full circle moment, and not full circle from when I started the project, full circle from nine-year-old version of myself. This relief that I was able to kind of feel my own trauma and also help. Heather's family and just how many opportunities in life do you ever get where you can actually do something and help out? And it was this moment that I like mythically got from Heather saying, You can put me down now. It was a t a ha touching moment there where I just kinda felt I didn't even realize I was carrying something for so long. Everything's all good now. Did her mom and her sister feel that way too? Were they in the end finally really blessed and happy with the result?

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I believe they were. You know, Heather's Heather's sister is a A very tough personality. And I think, you know, she doesn't definitely she definitely doesn't wear her emotions on her sleeve. She and she can be a little reactive. Think I can't imagine that any that they're unhappy right now. Cause I mean the reaction that people are getting, it's a beautiful film. It really shows people who she was as a person. It shares her story. It really tells the truth. And I think that they're very pleased. Good. That's my that's that's that's what I feel in my heart. And I just know that at least what's What's now out there in the final version is something I'm proud of. You have Craig T. Nelson in there, JoBeth Williams, who played her parents in Poltergeist, Zach Galligan, Gary Sherman, who directed Poltergeist III. And that's a pretty heavy lineup. How did you approach talent of that caliber for this story? How can other filmmakers do a similar thing? We're not a studio, we're not we don't have anyone majorly behind us, but I think really the power here came from Heather, just came from who she was that. People just cared about her so much that, you know, Craig T. Nelson even told us he's never given it an interview about Heather. He would only do it because of Heather's mom. We were offering this safe space to talk about her. When he's a filmmaker, if you want to create that and you kind of know what you're trying to make and you don't want to trick people, if you have the integrity there, I think it Follows and people will respond.

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And I think when people saw what we were doing and they heard what we were doing, they Said yes right away because they cared so much for her. You know, it was a question that I've been asked a number of times. What surprised you most about this whole thing? I've kind of gotten that question quite a bit. And the thing that surprised me while making this film was just how consistent everyone's description of Heather was. Because seriously, every friend, every teacher, every co-worker said the same exact thing about her. And it was people from different Areas or different places. Yes, she passed away and up usually when someone passes away they kinda will tell you just the good stuff. But it was just so consistent of the things that they would say about her. And that's what surprised me the most 'cause obviously that must be how she was. Because you hear it from a classmate in from second grade, a classmate from fifth grade, a classmate from seventh grade, a coworker from her early career. In the for later, it's a teacher. They'd all say the same exact thing. But I thought it was interesting that they all came out and said the same thing first. It was just interesting to me that when I say everyone, I mean literally everyone, the first conversation I would have, they'd say, you know, the thing about Heather is she was So normal. And I know what they meant by that, especially like classmates and friends, because I don't know about you, but I grew up with a lot of child actors and or people who were like Auditioning and doing little bit parts here.

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And those kids that you grew up with, They let it be known what they were doing. Like you knew the ones in class who kind of were like the, I've got an audition for Wonder Years. Everyone, you know, get cross my fingers and everyone tune in. I've got I'm gonna be out of guest star on Tuesday night. And like Heather was the opposite. Now she was a bona fide movie star and she didn't let anyone treat her differently, or she would kind of get bothered if anyone treated her differently. So that's why I think they all felt the need to say that she was normal. Of course, me as a Heather fan, I loved finding out every little detail of every little thing. And so even that even though I wasn't we couldn't put everything in the film, we do have it on film. We may make small videos later. But yeah, about the old soul thing, sometimes she would say things to her mom and her mom would tell us this. It's very strange that she's saying this, the insight that she would have. She'd make comments like about the last year of her life. She would say, you I'm I'm not always gonna look like this. There's always gonna be someone more talented than me. So she's like, I'm just gonna enjoy every moment of this because I know it can it'll be it can be gone in any given moment. Usually that's something the parent is saying to the kid. Right. But to have a kid say that to the parent, you know, her mom would be thinking, like, wow, like where is your insight? Where's this coming from? And it's just, you know, the amount of respect that she gave to people and the empathy.

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And that's just something that again, they say never meet your heroes. You know, I didn't know what Heather was gonna be like as a human being. Going into this project. I just kind of knew a little bit. I knew that sh people liked her, but I didn't realize how great she was and how special she was. And that's of course why that even makes it even more infuriating, why she's kind of the target for these kind of rumors and these and these tabloidy things that have kind Of happened. And of course I had to tell her story, you have to understand. And I have to understand I understand why she's be she's the target. And at least like and it has nothing to do with her. It's just her Place in pop culture history and timing and the way she died, what she was affiliated with. And it's kind of like one of those things where it kind of started after she passed away in the 80s during this real tabloid National Enquirer Star Magazine era where they like to Have those blurbs. And of course, like you know, Poltergeist curse, that's where that was born. Because that was a very buzzworthy title. And then it was this little pebble rolling down a hill. And kind of as time went on, it just keeps rolling down and then the internet Becomes a thing and all of a sudden any time Corey Feldman opens his mouth and you start hearing some abuse stories about the eighties that unfortunately a lot of it happened, but It didn't happen to Heather. But she just kind of gets pulled into it.

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Retroactively, people just kind of pull her into that boulder as it's rolling down the hill. And then people online will just take it as truth. And it's just so unfair to her. Disrespectful of course to people who actually went through trauma and nothing like that happened to her. And we kind of had all the stuff that we filmed, we actually have interviews that really debunked all these specific rumors. And just once we realized how false they are, this is again a documentary, you know, producer decision. The question is how much oxygen do you give it? When you when you've learned it's completely false, do you sit there and present it or do you just kind of let the truth speak for itself and not really wave the like wave the F the flames for this false narrative? This disgusting false narrative. That's that's the tricky part. Today's episode is brought to you by our friends over at Virgil Films. With over twenty-five years of distribution experience, Virgil has released such hits as Super Size Me and the Oscar nominated Restrepo, along with a trove of indie treasures like Forks Over Knives, To Die For, Seven Yards, and Speed is Expensive. Now you can find all of those films along with the entire Virgil catalog. On any transactional platform out there like Amazon, Apple TV, YouTube, Tubi, and the rest.

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Are you a filmmaker and you're having trouble with distribution? Talk to Virgil. They work with every major platform directly, and they offer a variety of deals that fit with every filmmaker's needs, from standard distribution to service deals. They do it all. And they don't just distribute films, they elevate them. Truthfully, They're just really good people to work with. So if you want to learn more, head on over to virgilfilms. Com and tell Christian Taylor sent you. And now on with the show. You mentioned the curse, and we've been talking about that a little bit, sort of this myth versus the reality in Heather's story. I have somebody that I want to introduce you to, this mystery guest that I have been telling you. Mystery guest, yeah, bring it on. This myth and reality sort of busted into my life a couple of weeks ago as I went to get my nails done, and I was telling my wonderful nail technician of the last many, many years About this podcast that I was doing. She's a faithful supporter, and she was, you know, asking me about that. And I told her about this movie that I've watched, and she goes, Well, I have to tell you a story. And so I would like you to meet my friend. Carolyn Jollette. Carolyn, meet Brian. Brian. Carolyn. How are you? Hi Carolyn.

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How you doing? Nice to meet you. First of all, kudos on she was here. Great, great documentary. Loved it. Absolutely loved it. Thank you so much. Thank you. So Carolyn is more than just my nail technician. She is many, many things. One of which she was a Chicago honey bear back in the day. She's Also with the other Chicago honey bears written a book that can be found. We will put that in the link. Her daughter is a famous actress. You can tell a little bit about your own daughter. I'll give you time to introduce yourself a little bit. You can read your bio, but I'd rather you tell a little bit about yourself from the beginning. So why don't you start? I'm Chicago based and been a dancer most of my life and went into went into the honey bears when I was very, very young. And now I have my own business for quite a few years in the salon business. And that's where our connection is a little bit, because I had a salon for many years and I was during Poltergeist Three, the filming, that's where my salon was. So I was in the building of Mid America Plaza in Oprah Terrace when they had the explosion. And so I was also they were there for I wanna say probably three weeks or maybe a month they were filming in that particularly it was the underground scene, the garage scene that they were filming in Pulture Guys Three.

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So I was going down every day in between, talking with some of the cast members. So that's where our connection is. Did you meet any of Heather's family? No, I didn't. You know, I just kind of I just stayed back and observed they knew 'cause I was there every day and I would just kind of go and watch. Back then I was a little more open. As far as sets. Now I think everything is kind of, you know, you have all your security and this and that and nobody's gonna let you through. But it was different in the eighties, you know, we didn't have the problems that we have today. So I kind of like they knew it was okay, here she comes again. I was like, I got a half hour break. I'll go and I'll sit and, you know, talk to the I was friendly with the stunt man and he was always sitting out waiting for something to happen. So we would just sit and kind of, you know, talk and observe. And I remember Tom Scarrot was there and My god, Zelda. I s would see Zelda kinda walk around. You know, obviously I was there when the explosion happened because my salon, I was the first floor. I was there the night before when they were gonna film that last explosion. And we couldn't be there during that time. That was a part they were like, You can't, but I saw everything being set up and they were going to on the ramp take the cars down, the car was supposed to flip and then ignite and It flipped and ignited and ignited, ignited, and it blew like I was one point five, I think, million dollars damage.

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And in the eighties, that's that was a lot of money. But we got the phone call that I couldn't go into the salon because all the soot and everything went to the first floor, which my first floor salon was ruined. So we had a shutdown and that's when I was kinda like this is a little a little crazy, but you know, we'll get it cleaned up for a few days and things'll go back to normal. And You know, they did go back to normal, but we just started noticing I wanna say a maybe just certain things that would happen. And there was a bathroom that was attached to my salon which had, you know, the rows of toy you know, toilets and sinks. And you know, you would go in there and I would wash my hands and the sinks would all go on. And at first I kind of was like didn't really didn't think it was anything. And then, you know, you don't c say anything 'cause you're just It just I know. You're like, well, well it must be just something in the, you know, plumbing or something. Then the next day you go in, it would be I would go in and the toilets you would they would be like they would flush one after another, after another, after another. So then again, you don't say anything 'cause you think you're going a little crazy. But then clients would go and they would go in and they would come in and they're like, I'd say, I think there's something like a plumbing issue 'cause their toilets keep like Going off.

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You know, and then I would go in there and look and make sure there wasn't people in there and so there was just like odd things that would happen during the I think during the Filming that I just thought were a little coincidence, maybe. Same thing with the elevators. I felt that there was an eeriness and maybe I'm just I don't know, maybe I that just the way I view that at the time. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? The funny thing even when it comes to Heather is I think it's sort of there is a bit of the fun Aspect when you're making a horror movie and you kind of can have those moments, you're kind of looking for them. Sometimes they happen, and it's kind of a fun thing, kind of more so than there's nothing's really scary about those moments, but it makes it kind of fun, brings your mind In that you're actually making a horror movie and things like just Heather's attitude towards everything is she kind of always embraced kind of those moments. Like if she were to, I'm sure if she were to have been in the bathroom and it flushed by itself, she would have like, Woo, ooh, it's like something, something's kind Of going on right now. Like she had a real fun attitude about. That type of stuff. So it's like and also it's funny that you mentioned that the explosion. We do mention that in our in the documentary. Right. Because it's one of one of one of my personal favorite stories of other I had just watched it and I learned about this explosion I'd never heard about before. And it is dramatic because you hear about this, it's a you know, part of your movie.

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And I'm telling her and she about this and she's like, I was there for the explosion. I was like, What? Tell the story of what happened. Heather wasn't on set that day 'cause and this was this was a scene that she was not in where there was an explosion in the garage. Kind of this is part of the movie. What happened was some of the pyrotechnics was not set up very well. And luckily nobody was significantly hurt during this. But they had the cameras all set up and then they detonated and it kind of did the explosions. This was like a very late shoot when this was going on. Yeah. And so, you know, Heather wasn't there. And I guess it got out of hand in a couple Of those explosions because some of the material was flammable and it started getting out of hand and they kind of said, Okay, well, they turned around and said, Okay, everyone, Like, let's put this out. And the people with the extinguishers were like not nearby because it started getting bigger. And I think it was like the second assistant director ran really fast to grab that footage, like to grab the cameras before it can burn. And that's just it was one of those just big explosions. Heather, who was in this big mode of like being a director, she was real Interested in the whole filmmaking process at this point and she was very invested. And so she came, she heard about it on the news that night, and then she came running into Gary Sherman's office that morning and was like frantic. It was like, my God, Gary, Gary, what happened?

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I heard about the explosion. Is everyone okay? And then she's he's he's like, Yeah, Heather, everyone's okay. I think that was what was so interesting about Gary Sherman and how he was such a touching interview because he clearly cared about her a lot. And And that's one thing that he really saw in her. He embraced her as this young director and saw that maturity in her that she knew she wanted to be this director. And he would put her in the chair and let her be a part of that experience. And it seemed like he took it particularly difficult because he could see her future and you know, it was just cut off too quickly. And, you know, when you get to the end of your documentary and you realize that it probably was a completely preventable You know, disease that she had, and you realize that she could have lived, it's even more tragic. Yeah, well, that's really the part that does not sit well with anyone, and also didn't sit well with me as a nine, 10, 11, 12-year-old, because you used to read those blurbs. And the thing is, her death was completely preventable. I mean, sometimes things happen, you know, a car accident or someone gets sick, and those are horrible tragedies. But it's like when something like her, where it was a misdiagnosis and Could have been corrected with a simple surgery. That just does not sit well with you.

30:40
And doesn't sit well with anybody all these years later because she should be here, especially all this time that's gone by, all this life that never happened. And that film when was really not so much just a film about a child star. It was really a film about loss and a film about losing a child and losing a sister, losing a best friend and the impact that has. And then also what the impact still remains thirty eight years later. And how you can you can continue, you know Honoring someone's memory and just kind of really seeing that visual of, you know, what it's like from Kathy's point of view to see her girlfriends and have them grow up and Graduate high school, graduate college, have kids, and weather's kind of forever frozen as a twelve year old girl. It's it that's a hard aspect to kind of see. And how do you I mean, and also with Heather and her mom, yes, d daughters and mothers are close, but I mean this was a particularly really close relationship between the two of Them. That, you know, really How do you move on? I mean, seriously, we've had conversations with Kathy. Also during this process, became a father twice. I had my first kid right when we were filming, and then had my second kid a couple of years later. And so my perspective changed. And just imagining, I mean, I don't even know what I would do if I lost my son or my daughter. And they're like five years old the second she was twelve. And so I mean, it's just kind of one of those things where that's what as a filmmaker, we tried to make it.

31:57
And I tried to be real people are connecting, which I'm learning as people are watching it. That they will take their own, you know, connection when they're watching this documentary. And I just find it interesting because I love talking to people after they've seen it. And I get stories like when I watched her Heather's mom breaking down, it reminded me of when I lost my sister. Or it reminded me of I just recently lost somebody or I recently lost a friend. And that's where I was connecting to this. I was feeling with or one of her girlfriends. I lost a friend in high school to a car accident. And I when I heard her talking about losing her friend and going into school that next day. Then all of a sudden finding out that, you know, your friend is dead, they're like I connected with that. Like that's where I was I was right there. And so that's what's kind of magical about filmmaking, because, you know, I realized, like I said, that this was not, you know, a story about a just a child actress. This was a hum a very human story. And hopefully people can walk away from this, not just knowing Heather more, but, you know, thinking about themselves and thinking about their own pain and their own How they can heal and really looking at Heather's Mom as an inspiration of how you can move on and live and breathe and eat. And I think Heather's Mom, too, is hoping that people will take away from this film the importance of looking deeper into medical issues, not just listening to the doctors or Taking them for what they say.

33:20
But, you know, she's really hoping that I think people will learn from that lesson. In their own lives with their own children, I think. Would you say? Definitely. As I mentioned before when we started talking about as a filmmaker, what your duty is, the responsibility of telling someone's story. What was so great, another thing that surprised me is you just didn't realize where your background will come in is with my legal background, being able to kind of understand when I'm reading all these depositions and knowing where they're going with these questioning, with these lines of questioning. And it was a very brutal arbitration that they did. And I But as an attorney, I understand why they were doing what they were doing. I know what their job was, you know, yes, it was really harsh that their take was blame the mom. But it's like their job was to bring the responsibility down from a hundred percent the hospital's fault down to as low as it possibly can be. And you have to put point your finger at something or someone. And just kind of a story that, you know, when you talk about solving someone's healing, Heather's best friend, this girl Marjean, who was Sixteen years old when she did the deposition. They kind of it was about three or four years later. And she was telling me that she remembers when she gave that deposition and she walked out of it feeling so empty because she felt like, you know, she was Heather's best friend and Every question they were asking, she kept saying, I don't know.

34:37
Like I don't know. And then she kind of walked out and she was thinking, My goodness, like this is my best friend and I did not help her because everything they were asking I didn't have an Answer to. And she told me that and I was letrusting. So I Pulled out her deposition. I went in there and I read it from, you know, front to back. And I know exactly what they were trying to do to her. And she actually gave a really good deposition. Because the thing is, they were trying to get her to say things or admit to things that were not true. And that's why she was saying, I don't know. I don't know, because it w it wasn't true. I mean, if she would have said yes to any of those questions, that would have been damaging to her case. Afterwards I sent some text messages to her and I said, just letting you know I read your deposition and You actually helped Heather out a lot during your questioning and just wanted to let you know you did a good job for her and she thanked me for that and said, Thanks. That was something I had been holding on to. That's something when you're making a film, especially one like this, you don't realize the healing you could bring to people. That's beautiful. That really probably set her free in an amazing way. We're almost running out of time, but I had asked you earlier, is there something you wanted to talk about? And You'd mentioned this is your first documentary and you do think that there are a lot of myths around documentary filmmaking. Like, you know, maybe it's not so hard. It can't be that difficult. So talk to me about what you meant by it, you know, myths of documentary filmmaking.

35:58
I call it the illusion of documentary filmmaking. Just I think if you do a good job if you present this illusion, just like that you just kind of have from start to finish. People just think you just put a camera up there, you interview a bunch of people, and then you just Kind of put it in order and boom, here you go. Here's your film. That's the illusion. But what it really is, it's basically a rhythm. It's an emotional movement. Think of it like a river where basically every interview can shift the direction of the river. And you have to kind of just sit down and it was you think you know the path of where it's going. And then someone will say something that'll completely change the current. And so that's kind of why it's even harder than normal filmmaking, because in normal filmmaking you have a script, you shoot it. And boom, there you go. Here it's like you have a skeleton a little bit, and then you're filming, and then you don't know which way it's gonna go because someone can say something either good or bad in An interview, and you may then have to go off on there, or you don't know what you're gonna find out, or you do your research and someone doesn't give a very good interview, so You have to kind of bring someone else in to help kind of keep that flow. And the reason why Heather's film hits the way it does, I feel, is not because of one interview. It's it's not because of like The reveal, it's because of the way it moves. What I really got out of it too is, you know, I love the light that you put on Heather, first of all. But I also love the relationship with her mom that they get to see because coming from I'm a parent that I've been through that in the show business with my with my daughter and Going through everything, I love that relationship that you see and that you see how caring she was. You see how You know, how thoughtful she was.

37:33
You could see that she wanted her to have a normal life. That really was the light that I love that you showed on her. You try to keep your kid grounded. Like how she went to school and she was just one of the other kids. You know, that you really, really want that. And so many they don't. So thank you for that. Thank you for other people seeing this. And, you know, maybe yes, understanding the life that she had. And I know it was only twelve or Twelve years that she was here, but she was she was bigger than life. You know, she really was you know, you could see that she was a wonderful kid. You could see the relationship with her sister too. I mean, and you showed that. And I think that's important for a viewer. Like I didn't know that. Thank you again for that. What I think is interesting too is how here she is in this scary, you know, other Worldly curse-filled movie. And she is this simple, normal, genuine, sweet, authentic girl. It couldn't have anybody more different to be in that role. You know, and I remember at one point you talk about you know, was she like all the actors were worried about scarring her or about this being difficult for her.

38:49
But they talk about how she just She wasn't afraid at all. She, you know, found it all to be very curious and interesting. And she just took it like she was a pro. That was part of, you know, an old soul. She just looked at it as like an adult would. It's fascinating. I think she was just a wonderful example for people, not only for kids, but also for adults. She was a very interesting human. That's why people, when they would hear rumors that pop out and try to put her in this box, anyone who actually knew her is Are you kidding me? You're making the rumors about the wrong person. That's why people wouldn't really talk about her publicly. And everyone had their I called it the Heather Guard, the Heather Shield, where it's anytime anyone would be interviewed, any co-star, they'd immediately get asked about Heather and immediately asked about her death, and they kind of had their planned little answers, their little canned responses to Poltergeist curse and the her death and Abuse or whatever people would want to throw at them. So being able to lift that Veil from everyone to be able to talk about Heather with a smile and actually getting to remember her is really what's was something we really tried to do and create for them. And you know back what I was saying, which you know obviously the hard part as a filmmaker here is when it gets to how she died and how you present that in a film.

40:06
Which is very hard. And as you saw, it was incredibly raw with Kathy. And like, you know, having that was one that was clearly the worst day of filming, having to Have her relive that morning in such detail. And keep in mind, I mean, it was condensed. We know every detail about that morning. And it's just like a real hard thing to have her relive and go through and then how you present it to people because, you know, it is very heavy. The thing that I tried to do as a filmmaker here is when you get to those last 20 minutes, it's not just about this is how she died. It's this is how it affected her mom. This is how her friend found out at school. This is how a director had to make a professional decision while grieving. This is what the funeral felt like. This is what the lawsuit did to their family. And this is what time did to them. I had those beats where it's like I really wanted to show the humanity of what happened. And then on top of all that, and then here comes what the world did with her story afterwards. Like here's where the headlines and the curse headlines and the rumors and the way her name just keeps getting pulled into things that had nothing to do with her. And it just stacks one layer after another. And the final five minutes, I tried to shift the lens again and Now it's not about the tragedy. It's about what she meant, what her friends carry with them thirty years later, or it's what her sister imagines she would have been like, or her mom reflects on seeing Grandchildren.

41:26
You know, basically but I was trying to explain, it's not just someone kind of fell off the family tree. It's the entire branch disappeared. So there's brother in law that never existed, and nieces and nephews were never born, and moments that never happened. And that's kind of what I carry in my heart that I try to present here. This is where it's a film about loss. It's not about a child star. It's about anyone who's unfortunately lost a child or lost a friend. I lost a friend in high school to a car accident. It's that type of stuff. So when you think about those things. And I think that's what I tried to do as a filmmaker. And again, when you're making a documentary, those are conscious decisions you have to make. Hopefully, what was what came across without talking in details about these rumors when people actually hear and feel the story about Heather, you really walk away from that, From that film. You know, it's it's it's heartwarming and heartbreaking at the same time. That was my goal, what I wanted to present. Well, I think you achieved your goal for sure. And I think you should feel very proud of that. I wanna ask you for filmmakers listening right now who might be working on their own sensitive story, maybe it's a family story or involves grief or loss or injustice. What's one thing you wish someone would have told you before you started this? Just that this takes time. I kind of walked into this, my first documentary.

42:42
I kind of thought it would take this wouldn't have taken as long as it did. I kind of even find myself making edits right now, like in my mind, things that you wanted to add or just when it comes to interviews and people and you know, it's kind of Like I'm in the I w I wanna be pretty candid with you during this interview here. You know, I've I've gone through coaching of stuff of how you pr how you plug a film, how you talk about things, things you do talk about, you're not supposed to talk about, You know, all that kind of stuff. I feel very comfortable talking to you here just as a filmmaker and if there were there were There was one interview in particular that we didn't get. I don't care. I can I can hear my publicist saying, don't talk about anything negative about the film. Like, you know, don't don't say this is not about the negativity of the film. This is the integrity of myself where I wanna want to give that healing and I want to learn that story. Yes, the most important person in sp in her story is Steven Spielberg. Yes, that was one that I know Spielberg meant so much to Heather, and s and Heather meant so much to Steven. And we really wanted to get his interview for. And I worked tirelessly. And even in my history, and I live in LA and I'm connected to practically everybody. And that was one thing I was unable to get. And the thing that was so frustrating was I couldn't get to him personally because his gatekeepers are so strong and they turned it down. I know in my heart that he was not approached with this. I know he would have given an interview for it because he cared so much about her.

44:01
And this wasn't for me, this was not the marketing filmmaker. How great it would be to have Spielberg in here. It's no. I wanted Steven as a human being to be interviewed here because, you know, she meant so much to him. Like, I mean, I even have a letter that he wrote to Kathy, kind of like a letter to Heather a week after she died. And that just shows you like how much, you know, she meant to him. And it's like, and he was so nurturing and so caring to her on the set and pretty much, you know, discovered her. And the film plays beautifully and fine without him, but it's not about that. I just wanted to give. Him that healing that I was able to give to everyone else. And just, you know, I think that he would have wanted to have spoken about her. And that's kind of yeah. So that's what bothers me. Gift that you gave everyone. That screening where everyone was able to come together and see this positive story put together and able to be together in a positive way and celebrating her life. I think that was a huge achievement. My family talks to me a lot about what success means as an independent filmmaker. And oftentimes we know as documentary filmmakers in this world it's not monetary and there are lots of other ways to track success. And I think one of is the way that we touch lives of people that we that are in our films or those that see our films.

45:23
And so I'm sure that you gave them an amazing gift. So thank you so much for sharing your story with the world. Carolyn It was so fun that you were part of this story too. I thought it was really neat. You had some first hand experience. It was great. It corroborated that this really happened. And it happened here in Chicago. Chicago's a big place. That was that was a big place in her story just because they filmed Poltergeist Three. That was her last film she shot and that was during the last year of her life. So she really felt connected. That was a big deal that as you were saying, it was a big deal in Chicago to film and they filmed the John Hancock building and People were talking the first thing they wanted to know if you know, if you saw Heather walking around her beautiful blonde, you know, hair and just with her little slippers or Something, just, you know, walking around and just she was tiny. Wasn't she incredibly tiny? I mean, yeah, that's that's kind of like she was such a tiny person. You could you know, you could see just h the sweetness about her. And just so you could see that in your eyes too, Brian. That's why they trusted you with the interviews. You can feel that already. To get what you got out of people. They have to trust you, especially with her mom and her sister. He has that kind of warmth about him that I can see where people can sit down and trust you with the story. And I think at the bottom of that, you have to be a genuine person. Yeah. Exactly.

46:40
If you can sniff out the bad people in a second, I say always trust your instinct. You can always trust your instinct when you feel something's not right. And but that's really the beauty, I guess, of like not needing it, so to say, when you have a passion project and I've got a whole other career. I'll do this the way I want to do it or I won't do it at all. So the people always I've been asked a lot of times, what's your next project? There is one documentary I have on my radar. I'm not going crazy and pushing on this. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I'm only gonna do it one way or not at all. And that's kind of how I felt with Heather's project. Every single place that we tried to pitch it wanted to make it about the Poltergeist curse. And I'm like, Really? You wanna say recycle the same story over and over again just because it's more marketable or it's sexier? No, this is what the film's gonna be. And of course, as a filmmaker is when you're doing it, yes, I did see every time it's great for Heather. How great she was and how wonderful she was. But of course, as we're filming it, there's no sensational, crazy story you're hearing here that's gonna be like your hook. It's more it's kind of like she's too good, where it's that's great for her. But when you're trying to make a movie, you need to have a little spice too. It's like have so many hats you're wearing. Yeah. And that's why it's hard when you have that producer hat and also that human hat. Well, before we go, I wanted to do our little segment, DocuView Déjà Vu. This is where we ask our filmmakers to bring a documentary film that they enjoy to share with our audience.

47:59
So do you have one? One documentary that really stayed with me was Adrienne. I don't know if you ever saw that. It was the documentary about the filmmaker Adrienne Shelly. She was murdered. Some guy who was in the building he was doing construction above her and came down and it made it seem like it was a suicide, made it look like she hung herself. This was basically a documentary about her and she had a husband and a daughter. But the interesting part about it is they had the involvement of, of course, the husband and the daughter. What I found so powerful was the film kind of followed her husband as he tried to process what happened after the death. And then there was a big moment near the end of the film. It's not really spoiling. It's just really just pointing out how it's just interesting in filmmaking where he went to the jail where the man who was given life in prison Basically he went face to face with the guy who killed his wife and he'd sat there at a table and was showing photographs to the guy and was showing 'cause his daughter, I think, At this time was maybe sixteen or seventeen, and he was showing photos of birthdays, milestones, and how this is my daughter's birthday party that my Wife didn't get to attend. And this was when she turned thirteen and this is her first dance and this was her soccer games and showed all these photos and the killer just sat there somewhat stunned with no Words before the husband just got up and said, Okay, I'm done. Whether that moment was planned or not, it was just so incredibly powerful.

49:15
It really just stuck with me so long after the film ended. Like what you can do when telling someone's story and it's a great well made documentary. And then again, talking about it in connection to my film, that's kind of what I set out to want to do as well. Show the reality of what happened. So then it when it comes to people wanting to make rumors more about Heather, which they will, they still make the comments, well, this documentary is not telling the real truth. We all know what really happened. You're not going to change those people. But I just figure when you tell the story a certain way, and just like with Adrienne Shelly and also with this one, you know what the real story is. So it just makes the rumors sound weak. Wow. Well That's my recommendation. So that's a good one. That's a really good one. Thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it. And you too, Carolyn. Thank you. Thank you for having me for a little. Thank you. Be sure to watch She Was Here. I mean, it's absolutely Yeah. You learn a lot about this wonderful person who, you know, was here too short but lived an incredibly full life and hopefully it's entertaining as well, as well As just, you know, educational and you'll get something out of it that you probably didn't think you'll you would. Yeah. All right, everybody, thank you so much for listening to Documentary First, for we believe everybody has a story to tell, and you can be the one to tell it.

50:31
Bye, everybody.