Beyond Banners: How to Make a Documentary With No Film School

Andre Jackson 0:00
I suffered several heart attacks. The first one, January 27th, actually resulted in me being rushed to the emergency room and having to be resuscitated. And then two days later, while still in the hospital, I had another heart attack in an MRI machine and had to be resuscitated again. I mean, first and foremost, my health and my family, that's number one, without question. But as far as the project is concerned, I feel like I returned with somewhat of a renewed focus and more determination to do a better job on the project. Ten days out of the hospital, I was on set at Gwynn Park.

0:43
If you have ever wondered how to take calculated risks, lean into your superpowers, uncover why the collective should matter, and overcome critical health scares to finish a film, then this show is for you. I'm Christian Taylor. You're listening to Documentary First, the podcast where we talk about the craft, the business, and the truth of filmmaking. Today I'm joined by Andre Jackson of Fairfax, Virginia, and we are so happy to have you. Welcome, Andre. Thank you, Christian. Glad to be here. Andre's here to talk to us about his film Beyond Banners. Now I watched this film today. Andre, I am really impressed with what you've done because you are a first time filmmaker. Tell me a little bit about yourself and how come this is your very first film? What have you been up to till now? Sure. So first and foremost, thank you so much for having me on your platform. I really benefited from watching it as I kind of move through this process. and I think it's unique in that your platform is beneficial for first timers like myself, but also for more experienced filmmakers, because you can always learn something. so you. for the past twenty years I've worked in the private sector, both in technology and security. working for companies like Capital One, Amazon, and also at the Department of Homeland Security for a brief step.

2:01
I came to this project, no film school, no industry connections, just an idea which actually came to me while sitting in the barber's chair while I was giving my haircut. and that idea was to, start a project to document a small school in Prince George's County called Gwynn Park High School. I wanted to document their basketball history. I actually learned about filmmaking through making a film. but I did that by really leaning into my superpowers and you know leveraging those transferable skills. When you say leaning into your superpowers, what do you mean by that? I mean, just the, skills that were, essentially strong for me, throughout my career, I worked as an intelligence analyst, working on cybersecurity and terrorism issues related to national security. So that required a lot of research and analysis. So I kind of leaned into those superpowers being research as I prepare for interviews and other aspects of the project, and also, communication and relationship building. Expanding my network, especially being a first-time filmmaker and not having any existing industry knowledge or contacts. that was essential. So really leaning into those areas where I was strong and being very intentional about bringing in crew members who could add to my deficits of knowledge and and experience. Now I asked you to come prepared with a few things that you think other filmmakers could learn.

3:23
One of the three things that you came to me with was this lean into your superpower. So we're gonna say that's number one. What was number two? It involves being comfortable taking calculated risk. For me that actually came twofold. The first risk I would say is having the courage to reach out, share your ideas, share your project as you recruit, and build your your tribe or people, I reached out to Henry Gretzinger who was I was fortunate enough to have joined the project and he's worked on projects that have, you know, Netflix credits and other significant platforms like HBO, having worked on, you know, The Last Dance and Elvis documentary. When I pitched him on this project, I think he immediately saw some potential in it. and that wouldn't have happened had I, kind of shied away from reaching out thinking that he has these credits, maybe he feels like he wouldn't want to be a part of this project that I'm trying to to create. So just being calculated in the risks you take and having the courage to, you know, just do outreach. the second one would be my project and the way I funded it. I was able to leverage some personal funds, more specifically also do a lot of fundraising. So just being calculated in terms of the risks you take from an outreach perspective, but also from a resource perspective, leveraging your existing resources and getting creative about how to kind of fill the gap to fund your project.

4:46
Okay, just to recap the three things that filmmakers can take away from what you learn from your filmmaking experience: Number one, take calculated risk. The courage to ask maybe others who have more experience than you to come on board. Leaning into your superpowers, the things that you're really good at. For you, it was research and investigation. And then be resourceful, how to leverage your relationships in order to get interviews, maybe, or locations. And then leverage the relationships that your relationships have. Am I saying that right? Yeah. ~ And then Absolutely. Absolutely. you talked about as well as financing, be resourceful in your financing. And you talked to me earlier about having a fiscal sponsorship. We haven't talked about that a lot on our show recently. So why don't you explain what a fiscal sponsor is? Sure. So a fiscal sponsor is essentially a 501(c)(3), in my case it was the Southern Documentary Fund. and what they do is they serve as kind of an intermediary between a director or producer and the project itself and donors. and it kind of incentivizes donors to want to contribute to a project and they get a tax deduction by doing so. You have to actually submit and apply. And then once you're accepted, you go through the onboarding process, you know, kind of set up your accounts and things of that nature. And then as donors, you can kind of pitch it to incentivize potential donors that they will get a tax break by contributing to your project.

6:09
That's awesome. Let's talk a little bit about your film. The name of the film, is Beyond Banners, as in Championship Banners. I was attempting to document the history of a successful basketball program in Prince George's County, Maryland. but basketball ended up really becoming more of just the entry point into the larger story. The interviews repeatedly moved through, you know, beyond wins and losses. and kind of expanded into more of a story about community, legacy and change. About when a small high school basketball program becomes part of a community's identity. A lot of sports documentaries focus on celebrity and individuals who make it out of certain environments. instead this one is more focused on who stayed, more stewardship, coaches that invested in young people over generations and the impact they had in changing lives. You know, let's take a minute and watch your trailer.

Coach 7:04
Way to play, boy. We're attacking the basket for the rest of the half. Do you understand me? Do you understand me?

Alumnus 7:26
Maryland? They were the head of the village that wanted to see these young peoples make it, and they were successful at it. You talking about my family. You talking about my parents, the people who really started this. I want the camaraderie. That Brandywine, you're going to have to bring your A+ game. It's not just the rivalry on the court, because there's a lot of trash talking off the court as well. ...candle to Gwynn Park basketball.

Ida Jones 8:17
What is it about community that makes us community?

Alumnus 8:22
There's a difference between past and now.

Coach 8:29
Beat them up a little bit and punch them in the face a couple of times. Not literally, but figuratively.

Alumnus 8:37
I think history has a way of repeating itself. Nobody knows what's ahead. We just know it's going to be very, very different.

8:50
What I really enjoyed about your film, truthfully, I thought the story itself was told very well. I like how you built the idea of community, starting back with the original coach who decided he was going to build this program. You know, today we have all of these travel programs that are built. You started with this dude who's like, I'm gonna go knock on doors and I'm gonna drive people to this local playground and I'm gonna open the gym on Saturdays and we're gonna start kids playing basketball from when they're little. And he basically built his own feeder program. And he started building this community and involving the parents. And what I loved is you talked to all sorts of older people who grew up kind of in this community and in that environment. And I loved how near the end of the film you're talking to sort of the elder generation, maybe she must have been in her 70s at least, maybe not eighties, but also someone in the next generation down, and they're both talking about the same thing that that community held, which is love. It's what held that community together. And you you felt it all the way up till that point, but here they are at the end articulating it. Absolutely. I'm I'm glad you enjoyed that that aspect of the film. Unfortunately, we we lost Miss Sylvia Taylor. she actually passed away during the post production phase.

10:12
and so we'll recognize her as you know, part of the film for but she I thought she did a really outstanding job. You can just kind of feel the emotion and her passion for the community, which I think we've certainly got away from as a society and hopefully this film helps kind of you know communicate that to the masses. As you were going through making this film, what surprised you? You said that you started off wanting to tell one story and in a sense it ended up becoming something different by the end. As I entered kind of the pre production phase, I had a really narrow idea, right? It was just about documenting the history of this basketball program. But as I start to kind of lean into my superpower and research and dive deep, I started to, you know, learn so many different aspects. It's it's somewhat of a a pretty layered story. that you know started in the integration period and then that was kind of the catalyst for the program. just you know winning lots of state championships. I mean over a twenty year period this team went to twelve state championships. And had one more than any high school in the state of Maryland, for over several decades. and so I really wanted to capture that, but just learning about the father, Howard Matthews, who's one of the co-protagonists in the film, it's kind of a intertwined protagonist, if you will, between a father and son.

11:34
I just learned about that father son legacy story and we wanted to really lean in that into that as we develop the the story. And then also kind of broaden it out, right? kind of do a reflection of where are we now today in terms of the youth landscape and the commercialization of youth sports and how that's impacting communities. That is a very interesting point that you brought up. I have two kids that have played college sports, a husband that coaches high school sports. And in the last five years, that has really, really changed. Money has entered at the college level, starting to trickle down to high school, and it's changed the game immensely. You step back five years before that, ten years before that, and you've got travel leagues that have changed the landscape of of even middle school sports. When when I was playing, sports were contained to after school. And you tried out and you practiced after school, and sports were left at school, and your games were in the evenings, maybe on the weekends, but there was no such thing as a travel team. And it was built around your communities. And football teams played against football teams and other communities, as do basketball teams and tennis teams. And then somewhere in the late 90s, that began to change. Early 2000s, travel teams were born, and you know, parents began to believe that their kids could get college scholarship money if they had really great, athletes.

13:05
And so They began training them up from an early age. And that doesn't matter what sport. It was happening in every sport. And so people that had the money would sign their kids up and still do for travel teams, or they would take them out and put them in different schools so that they could be playing at a private school against other private schools. And it's really changed changed the game. It's changed the schools, it's changed at the middle school, high school, and the college level. Absolutely. and specifically within the public school realm. This story really highlights that because Gwynn Park is a public school and we try to show how, you know, a confluence of of issues and things that are going on from travel ball to your point, where kids play year round and specialize really early and get trainers. they don't play on playgrounds anymore. It's really shifted from more of a community based development to more of an exposure culture. Everyone, is trying to travel from state to state at the age of seven and eight years old, in pursuit of not only college scholarships now, but NIL deals and unrestricted. And why don't you explain what an NIL deal is? Sure. So NIL is short form for name, image, and likeness. and there are deals that now at one point it was kinda introduced at the collegiate level, but now it's kind of trickled down to the high school level.

14:27
So my story takes place within the state of Maryland. I believe it was in twenty twenty two, so roughly three or four years ago. the state of Maryland actually approved high school players to be paid in a way that almost in a way that professionals and collegiate athletes are through sponsorship deals. and so, we certainly touched on that in the film. Yeah, and it's fascinating to me because on the one hand, it seems like logical. Well, people are making money off of these kids. They're selling concessions, they are selling tickets, they are selling jerseys. So they are making money. off of the name, image, and likeness of these athletes. So, in some sense, as your brain thinks, well, shouldn't these kids get a cut of this money? Then you start giving these kids some cuts of these money. Well, money changes people. lots of people, everybody that's involved. And that's what we have been seeing. And not we've seen tons of coaches quit over this issue at college levels and high school levels. Yeah, and I think it's also contributed to you know, American society kinda celebrates individual mobility, right? And it it's not always I'm not I don't want to paint it as always being like a negative thing because it's not.

15:45
but if e everyone can't do it, right? If everyone leaves, we won't have legacies being created and passed down. and so yeah, I really try to highlight that in the film So I tried to address that issue in the film. basically there's been kind of increase in the commercialization of high school sports. there are a lot of basketball academies that are being stood up across the country, in Atlanta, California, and it's really impacting community based schools, public schools, where some of the best players, the best talent, are actually leaving these schools to kind of transfer to these other basketball academies or private schools. you know, they are being financially incentivized to do so. and some players even you know move schools as many as four or five times in a you know four year period. So I really think you know unrestricted transfers, NIL deals, year-round travel basketball, which forces players to kind of specialize in one sport. and incur, overuse damage and injuries. it's all kind of coming together at one time and it's really adversely impacting the community and s more specifically public schools. Yeah, you see that. You you brought that out very clearly near the end of your film.

17:04
And it actually made me very sad because you had the juxtaposition of that in the beginning of your film, where you show how all of the alumni are coming to these basketball games for this school. And you see how that community that was built in the 60s and the 70s, these alumni now are still coming to these games because that community was built. when Howard Matthews started it. But now here in the 2020s, not as many kids are here. They're all going off to these other schools. Things are changing. And so the community is being robbed of of the same kind of players, the same kind of environment. And it's really sad. You see Howard Matthews' son just super sad about what's happening. and you know that it's going to change that community for good. Yeah, I mean one one thing that I think was unique about Gwynn Park high school is that the alumni continue to show up, right? and that's not the case for all public schools. Although there are a number of Gwynn Parks throughout the country, it's somewhat of a unique and rare environment. and as we continue, the d demographics in Gwynn Park's community have changed. There's been, an increase in construction. It used to be farmland, like when I attended Gwynn Park, and I should have probably started with that.

18:23
I I'm an alumni of Gwynn Park which I have a personal connection to the story. And so as that community changes, not only from the external forces that we just mentioned, NIL deals, et cetera, et cetera, but also in a you know demographical area, there's been an increase in construction and it's now a densely populated suburb where it used to be farmland. And so, you know, the families are kind of moving out and and to your point, Christian, things are changing. So the social conditions are absolutely changing and is impacting the community based schools. Now, during the course of this film, something happened. You started to film and you're rolling right along and something pretty traumatic happened to you. Talk to me about that and how that changed the outcome of the story. I had to overcome some adversity in making the film, personally. so In January of this year, I suffered several heart attacks. The first one, January 27th actually resulted in me being rushed to the emergency room and having to be resuscitated. and then two days later, while still in the hospital, I had another heart attack in an MRI machine and had to be resuscitated again. What that did for me was renew my focus on the project. I mean, first and foremost, my health and my family that's number one, without question. but as far as the project is concerned, I feel like I returned with somewhat of a renewed focus and more determination to do a better job on the project as I try to recover from my own personal health issues. Ten days out of the hospital, I was on set at Gwynn Park. There's several scenes in the film and a theme around rivalry, which includes a Battle of 301 Gwynn Park High School versus Douglas High School.

20:06
and so it was important. for me to be there, although I wasn't strong enough to be there for the entirety of the set. it was important for me to show up, show face and make sure everything was operating as intended. and I don't say that as a badge of honor, but just to show how important and passionate I was about the project and continuing despite my own setbacks personally. Secondly, it actually forced me to think about contingency planning, right? Which I think maybe in the industry, other than backups, that's certainly a area of focus, but kinda kept a lot of ideas in my own head as a first time filmmaker. And so after that event, my wife who's also the executive producer and Susan O'Hara who's served as an A D and producer for the film, I started to share more information with them. I started to make sure that they understood, what the next steps were and I had to kind of document things more to get things out of my head because my future was uncertain, having faced my own mort mortality. And so that's one takeaway and recommendation I wouldn't also have for not only first time filmmakers, but just filmmakers in general. Think about contingency planning and make sure that there is some succession in place. For me this was a passion project.

21:26
and so I wanted to make sure that regardless if I was around or not, that that project would be completed. Yeah, you must feel very passionately about this project. Absolutely. Do you feel that working so hard on the project led to that traumatic event or would it have happened anyway? Would do you feel like you needed to change the way you worked prior to the heart attack? Yeah, so and that's a great question. that's context that I left out. I was actually shoveling snow prior to okay. the event. So I think, it was already some internal things going on. That just kinda surfaced what was already going on internally with me. Was the project stressful? Absolutely. Was it the hardest thing that I've ever done in my life? Yes. But fortunate enough now to say that I was able to accomplish it thanks to the the team. The team that I was able to build was incredible and they stepped up and stepped in and in a way that I couldn't imagine. And my wife, my biggest supporter, I couldn't have done it without her as well. So I was just very fortunate to supported the community, my crew and family, to overcome that adversity. So there was never any thought of laying down the mantle.

22:42
You never thought about, okay, maybe I should just hang it up. No, that wasn't an option. There was only All right. Good. plan A and and plan A only. And I say that because another thing I did was I kinda ~ introduced some external pressure on myself. by getting on Instagram, through my own social friend network by me communicating that, hey, I'm working on this documentary, we're gonna do this documentary. it kinda invited pressure. Like I, had to continue to push forward. With the project, regardless of, any mixed emotions or feelings that I may have encountered during the process. and I think that's a tactic that others can use as well, is invite some public pressure by sharing your goals and objectives. And then, others will help hold you accountable to that. Yeah, that's great advice.

Sponsor: Virgil Films 23:31
Today's episode is brought to you by our friends over at Virgil Films. With over 25 years of distribution experience, Virgil has released such hits as Super Size Me and the Oscar- nominated Restrepo, along with a trove of indie treasures like Forks Over Knives, To Die For, Seven Yards, and Speed is Expensive. Now you can find all of those films, along with the entire Virgil catalog, on any transactional platform out there like Amazon, Apple TV, YouTube, Tubi, and the rest. Are you a filmmaker having trouble with distribution? Talk to Virgil. They work with every major platform directly, and they offer a variety of deals that fit every filmmaker's needs, from standard distribution to service deals. They do it all. And they don't just distribute films, they elevate them. Truthfully, they're just really good people to work with. So if you want to learn more, head over to Virgilfilms.com and tell them Christian Taylor sent you. And now, on with the show.

24:37
All right, I read in a news article that you were a first-time filmmaker, you wanted to figure out some things, so you utilized AI to kind of teach yourself. Talk to me about your use of AI in this film. I did. I guess it's kind of threefold. So first, in terms of being a first time filmmaker and not having gone to film school, I wanted to kinda understand what the entirety of the process looked like at a high level, kind of thirty five thousand foot view. and so, I was quickly able to understand pre prod development, production, post prod, We'll set distribution and everything else that comes after the fact. but I really wanted to understand the process, from beginning to end. so AI was kind of able to help me accelerate that process in terms of learning, not to negate the personal contact I had. So there's a writer, director, producer, Marquis Small, from Brooklyn, New York, who sat down with me in a coffee shop one day and just kinda gave me a blueprint over a three hour period. and so, going between AI and my own personal network, I was able to come up to speed a bit. I mean, it's still a lot that I'm still trying to wrestle with even after post prod. But that and also I would say kind of filling in gaps. So one of my co-protagonists in the film is deceased and I didn't have a lot of footage or stills of him.

25:57
So I had to kind of leverage AI for the purposes of doing reenactments and kind of filling those gaps that I had in terms of actual footage in still images. and then also from an organization perspective, and I think I've heard you talk about this, Christian, in previous episodes, kind of organizing my thoughts. So leveraging AI to challenge me on some of my assumptions or as I prepare for interviews, like what am I missing? What am I not thinking about? and then also tasking AI to take on personas. I'm a big Ryan Coogler fan. So what would Ryan Coogler say in response to my line of thinking about this interview or, this question. so I really tried to, think outside the box in terms of leveraging AI to serve as kind of a second brain Throughout the project. That's pretty cool. All right. talk about that animation. I found that animation very interesting. I had mentioned to you earlier, it was a first place where I actually got emotional. You are telling the story about the co-protagonist Howard Matthews, who started this program in Gwynn Park, and he is talking about going around and getting these kids and how he is this mentor to these young, soon-to-be basketball players. And it didn't hit me at the time that it was made my by AI. I knew it was made made by a computer. but yeah, talk about that animation a little bit.

27:13
Absolutely. So Daniel Bowie, the producer and editor on the project Beyond Banners. One of the ideas he had for this specific scene we wanted to do a reenactment. 'Cause it was somewhat of an emotional scene. They were his son and one of his mentees, Howard Matthews mentees, they were standing in front of the family home and kind of talking about, the relationship and how Howard poured into the community, how he poured into kids. So we wanted to reenact that scene. And my editor had an idea to leverage AI to, create this animation scene to kind of reenact that. using I believe it's Higgsfield was a tool, which is kind of an aggregator. of a variety of different AI models. So he was able to kind of produce that animated reenactment and I think it it worked out really well. Yeah, I agree with you. Let's talk about the found footage in there. You had a lot of archival, heavy, heavy archival stuff. How hard was that? well, it really it was made a lot easier, because I really was fortunate to have so much support from the Gwynn Park High School community, from the alumni base. former alumni had actually saved footage over the years from, real footage, from nineteen sixty nine and nineteen seventy three. and so they were, more than enthused to kind of contribute that to this project.

28:33
in fact there's a gentleman, James Hawkins, who actually lives in Illinois. and he he graduated from Gwynn Park in nineteen seventy, but he actually wrote a book on his three peat experience when Gwynn Park won back to back to back state championships between s nineteen sixty eight and nineteen seventy. So he was more than willing and he was a huge help. He was a major contributor to my project in terms of the real footage that he contributed and also the the articles and things of that nature. So was really fortunate to have again that alumni base to tap into and I actually went through classmates dot com to identify, you know, yearbooks and you know images that I could leverage for the purposes of trying to visualize the story. That's awesome. what year did you graduate, by the way? I graduate graduated from Gwynn Park, I'm sorry, in nineteen ninety eight. In ninety eight. Okay. So did you which players did you know any of the famous players that you interviewed? No. So that's a great question, Christian. So you know, if folks get a chance to look at my website or check out the film, you'll see the banners on the wall, right? It's roughly ten banners on Gwynn Park's wall. So when I was there as a player in the nineties, the mid to late nineties, those banners weren't there. They're relatively new. ~ So I had no previous or prior knowledge.

29:51
I knew that there was some success, but I had no idea that Gwynn Park was like I think it's roughly at that time two hundred some-odd high schools throughout the state, public schools. Gwynn Park was number one in the state in terms of the number of state championships that they had won over like a twenty to thirty year period, starting in in the integration era. So, I didn't know. It was all about the research and an investigation that kind of revealed evidence and I kinda took it and and ran from there. That's fascinating. Well, speaking of, you had some celebrities interviews in here. How hard was it to get those interviews? I guess that's kind of going back to taking calculated risk. The biggest names, if you will, in the film, I'll start off with Hall of Fame coach Tubby Smith. Tubby Smith is probably most known for winning the national championship in nineteen ninety eight. That's odd. same year I graduated from Gwynn Park. He led University of Kentucky to this national championship in nineteen ninety eight. and he's also served as a assistant on several, US Olympics teams. And he's just had an incredible career. in fact I think he's the number one African American coach in terms of wins in division one. So I was really And did he have any connection to the school?

31:10
So he actually competed against Gwynn Park and also coached against Gwynn Park as he, grew up. He went to another rival high school. He went to Great Mills High School in Southern Maryland and they had to compete against Gwynn Park. So he can actually speak from a competitors and rivals perspective. on what he knew about Gwynn Park's history from a first hand account. and I actually landed that interview by cold calling him. Again, calculated risks. I knew that he knew some folks that were on that Gwynn Park team that he used to play against. and so I wasn't shy about saying, hey, I'm doing a film. I partnered with somebody you know which helped establish trust. So he kind of leaned in and was more interested in the story and participating in the project. All right, so the other celebrities, keep going. Yeah, the other celebrities, ~ Randolph Childress, who is probably most known for his college career and breaking a lot of ACC records as a star at Wake Forest University. actually that relationship came through Chris Hawkins. Who is one of the subjects and actually is an alumni of Gwynn Park because they were teammates. They actually won a state championship together in 1988 I believe. I think it was the last state championship that Gwynn Park had won.

32:28
So basically that was a warm introduction from Chris Hawkins. The former sports editor for the Washington Post, Neil Greenberger actually that was another cold call. so I reached out to him, but I actually knew someone that he knew as well. So I'm also not shy to name drop to try to build rapport. so that's how I was able to land the interview with Neil Greenberger. Separately, Ida E. Jones actually, I did research on who were some of the American historians And she was a little hesitant at first because, it's a sports documentary and that's not really her lane. But I try to communicate and and kind of share with her that you know, the uniqueness of this project is that I want to take, folks from a variety of different backgrounds and kind of mix it together. And I think it would be you know, make for producer much more comprehensive, well rounded, output of a project that more folks can kind of resonate with from a historical perspective and also from a sports perspective as well. And she definitely, I thought, did a really good job of providing historical context around everything that was going on in that region during that time.

33:45
I agree with you. If you were to think about what the most difficult thing was for you during this entire experience, and I'll give you more than one, but what were the hardest parts for you? Really finding the story. and I you know, I don't know if that is because I'm a first time filmmaker. I'm s I'm sure that probably certainly has something to do with it. But coming into a a really rich story, which I think is a good problem to have, to understand, what is our area of focus, right? For me, it was the father-son legacy. Like that was the kind of the entry point for the story. I think the story kind of builds off of that. and that's kind of the spine, is the the father-son connection and how Steve Matthews had to come in and kind of inherit a legacy that his father had established in the community. So just kind of the discovery of the story. And I think several things that I did actually lended to finding the story. The first thing was building out a crew that one had no familiarity with Gwynn Park, the region, or the sport of basketball at all. Right? I thought that was important. Understanding that I had a lot of subject, I'm very subjective. I'm from the community, have insider access, which is a a a tremendous benefit, but also a limitation in that I'm not probably gonna be the most subjective when it comes to, creating and telling the story.

35:10
So I was very intentional about finding crew with those characteristics. The second thing is introducing a historian. Like I think that's just that changed the dynamic of the story and allowed to, bring in those things of community. Ida Jones, who is the historian that I'm I'm speaking of, who actually works at Morgan State University, she had a line in the film, and it's one of my favorites was And it it kinda sounds simple, but what is it about community that makes us community? Right? We all kind of see ourselves and community and neighborhoods are very central to our identity as human beings. And I think that kind of resonated throughout the film and she certainly kind of called that out in one of her you know, in response to one of her interview questions. Yeah, You made a statement earlier before we started rolling, which is this film is about why the collective should matter. And I think that you did answer that question very, very well. I think this this film demonstrates why the collective should matter because it shows what this basketball team did for this community in the self esteem of all of not only the boys that played. but everyone else around it. And you can hear that pride in the alumni when they're sitting in the barbers chairs or when they're coming to the games and you can see what it did in that community and it just speaks volumes.

36:34
so I I definitely think that you should be proud of this film, proud of the work that you did. I certainly enjoyed watching it. I think that other people will too. And and I look forward to it being released. What do you hope that people walk away from this film thinking? What do you want what do you want to happen with this film? I hope that it lends itself to folks having a more nuanced conversation around the commercialization of youth in high school sports and the impact that it's having on communities. I know that a lot of and I think I mentioned this earlier, a lot of journalism and news is around how individuals are benefiting. And I you know, I fully realize like you know, individual mobility is kinda celebrated in our society. The bigger job, the bigger opportunity and movement. but I think what this film highlights is the importance of stewardship. Everyone can't be mobile, right? And I'm you know, I try not to put a negative spin on mobility because I realize I I do see the value in it, but we also need stewards. We need Howard and Steve Matthews and a Spenser Wade in these communities, pouring into kids. without any financial incentives. I think when folks are financially incentivized, sometimes it kinda changes the motivation and the outcomes.

37:52
And so, I just think it's important for communities to kind of get back to the original intent of youth sports, which is to be more focused on developing, good humans and learning, a lot of those life skills. And just think it'll, you know, also help public schools which seem to be kind of suffering as a result of this commercialization. I pointed out to you earlier, private school and academies dominate, why don't we care about public schools? Well, where did Michael Jordan come from? Where did Kobe Bryant come from? And if you say, Well, okay, that's a long time ago. Look as recent as Anthony Edwards. Look at the finals MVP most recently Jalen Brunson. So, public schools matter. and I just want that to really come across in the school in the film. It does very loudly and I think that this leaves a lot of conversation on the table. I think there is a lot to be said for for sports and I think sports should do a wonderful job at helping us learn to play well together, to communicate. I think it's a wonderful tool for us to develop character and cooperation skills and problem solving skills. It's best used when we're using it for those tools and not commoditization, which we always seem to be doing here in America, commoditizing everything, unfortunately.

39:14
Well thank you very much for sharing about your film and I loved talking about it. It's very nice to meet you. I'm wondering if you'll share one more thing. we are now to our favorite section called DocuView Deja View. And in this section, we ask our filmmakers to bring a documentary that they will recommend. So, do you have a documentary to recommend to our viewers? I do. and it was it actually was my inspiration for doing this film. Now it it's a little dated to be honest with you, but it's called That's all Undefeated. I love undefeated. I love undefeated. my God. Yeah. Great one. Yeah. prior to that, for me it was Last Dance. I'm a Michael Jordan fan. But undefeated. It was one of those films where like whatever I had to do, I rushed and tried to finish it so I can get back to it. and so yeah, I I was just you know, it was a compelling film and Rightly so. I think it won an Oscar or was at least nominated for an Oscar Did win an Oscar. Yeah. and so yeah, i it was a great film. Yep. Agreed. Agreed. All right. Undefeated, everybody. Go check it out. All right. Well, right now your film is headed to festivals. So we'll be on the lookout for it in the festival circuit. And we're gonna try to get you introduced to Virgil Films because we think you need distribution. So we'll work on that one.

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and everybody, we really appreciate you listening to Documentary First. If this podcast has been meaningful for you, if you think somebody else should hear it, please text it to a friend. Give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It helps others find us and it helps us out as well. And please join us on Patreon. We'd love to have you in our community. Thanks everybody for listening to Documentary First, where we believe everybody has a story to tell, and you can be the one to tell it. Bye, everybody.