Michael Parks and the Making of Long Lonesome Highway

Documentary First, Episode 262 · with Josh Roush, director of Long Lonesome Highway: The Story of Michael Parks · 45 minutes · October 8, 2025

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Who was Michael Parks, and why did a punk rock filmmaker spend 10 years telling his story?

Michael Parks sang “Long Lonesome Highway” onto the charts in 1970, walked away from Hollywood’s idea of a career, and came back decades later in Kill Bill, From Dusk till Dawn and Tusk. Josh Roush met him on the set of Tusk, where he was working behind the scenes for Kevin Smith. What started as an angry young punk rocker and an old actor not getting along in a trailer turned into a friendship, and then into the documentary Long Lonesome Highway: The Story of Michael Parks, which Josh spent about 10 years and his own money to make.

In Episode 262 of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor talks with Josh about how he went from punk rock to filmmaking, the stories Parks told him about Johnny Cash, Lenny Bruce and James Dean, and why Parks wanted $25,000 to take part. Josh explains why the film went ahead without Quentin Tarantino, how fair use let him tell the story with archival clips and photos, and how the film got finished for about $50,000.

Christian, who had recently lost her mother, tells Josh how much it meant to her that he looked past Parks’s prickliness to the man underneath. They talk about why a producer told Josh to put himself in the film, the losses and comebacks in Parks’s life, and his five stages of an actor.

In this episode, you’ll learn

  • How Josh Roush went from punk rock bands in Orange County to Cal State Fullerton’s film program to doing nearly every job on his own films
  • How a young behind-the-scenes filmmaker and a grumpy Michael Parks became friends in a trailer on the set of Kevin Smith’s Tusk, starting with a Johnny Cash song
  • Why Parks wanted $25,000 to be in the documentary, and how the first financing fell apart
  • Why the film went ahead without Quentin Tarantino after years of waiting
  • How fair use, and a second legal review, let Josh build the film from archival clips and photos
  • How Josh made the film for about $50,000, with help from Kevin Smith, and why he priced the DVD as low as possible
  • Why producer Scott Mosier told Josh to put himself in the film
  • What Christian sees in Parks’s life: a man ahead of his time who kept getting back up, and his five stages of an actor

Questions and answers

Who was Michael Parks?

Michael Parks (1940 to 2017) was an American actor and singer. He starred in the 1969 series Then Came Bronson, and his recording of its theme, “Long Lonesome Highway,” reached the Billboard Hot 100 in 1970. Quentin Tarantino once called him the greatest living actor on the planet. After years away from the spotlight, he returned in films by Tarantino, Robert Rodriguez and Kevin Smith, including Kill Bill, From Dusk till Dawn and Tusk.

Why isn’t Quentin Tarantino in Long Lonesome Highway?

Director Josh Roush says the team was always told it was a matter of when, not if, Tarantino would join the film. Tarantino and Michael Parks were close friends and shot pool together before Tarantino had a name for himself. But his involvement kept getting pushed down the road while lawyers’ fees piled up, so Josh decided to finish Long Lonesome Highway without him.

How does fair use work in a documentary?

Josh Roush, who stresses he is not a lawyer, says fair use lets a filmmaker reuse a piece of media to comment on why it is culturally or socially relevant. In his experience a clip is usually under 30 seconds, and someone on screen has to be talking about it, such as Michael Parks’s role or his choices as an actor. His lawyers, Donaldson + Callif, cleared Long Lonesome Highway, and he paid for only a few photos. He kept music to a minimum because music rights holders are very litigious.

How much did it cost to make Long Lonesome Highway?

Josh Roush says the budget was $40,000 and ended up at about $50,000 after a second round of lawyers’ fees. Kevin Smith helped finance the film. Josh says profit was never the motivation: when the film came out on DVD, he asked the distributor to sell it for the bare minimum, about $10.81 on Amazon.

Why did Josh Roush put himself in his own documentary?

Josh Roush screened an early cut without himself in it for Scott Mosier, a producer of the documentary A Band Called Death and Kevin Smith’s longtime producer. Mosier told him he needed a throughline to connect the audience to Michael Parks and that Josh had to be in the film. Josh says he hates being on camera, but Christian Taylor tells him the film works because the audience sees Parks through his eyes.

Chapters

  • 0:00 From Punk Rock to Filmmaking
  • 5:41 A 10-Year Road to Long Lonesome Highway
  • 8:36 Why Tarantino Isn't in the Film
  • 10:36 Meeting Michael Parks on Tusk
  • 17:06 His Son James, Kevin Smith and Poker
  • 22:32 How Does Fair Use Work?
  • 27:00 Making a Documentary for $50,000
  • 29:29 Why Josh Stepped In Front of the Camera
  • 33:42 A Man Ahead of His Time
  • 39:28 The Five Stages of an Actor
  • 42:12 Burden of Dreams and Werner Herzog

DocuView Deja View picks

DocuView Deja View picks: Josh recommends Burden of Dreams (1982), Les Blank’s documentary about Werner Herzog making Fitzcarraldo. He calls it a story of man against nature, man against self and man against society, about refusing to give up when everything goes wrong at once. He says it is a testament to what creative work can be, while also showing how stupid it can be, and that Herzog is a god to him. Every guest pick is in one place.

About the guest

Josh Roush is a filmmaker based in North Hollywood, California, who works under the name Anti Current Multimedia. He was born in Middletown, Ohio, moved west at 19 to play in punk rock bands in Orange County, and studied in the film program at Cal State Fullerton. He has directed one narrative feature, Wrong Reasons, four documentaries and more than 30 music videos, and he also tours with punk rock bands and shoots their videos. He worked at Sony for nine years. He started as a Kevin Smith fan at poker nights, then ran crowd camera on Smith’s podcasts, ran one of them, and shot behind the scenes on his movies, including Tusk.

About the film

Long Lonesome Highway: The Story of Michael Parks (2025) follows Michael Parks’s rise, the choices that cost him his early career, the losses in his life, and his late comeback. Josh Roush wrote, directed, shot, edited, colored, composited and sound designed it. Kurt Russell, Justin Long and Parks’s son James are among the voices in the film. Josh built it from archival clips and photos, including footage he bought on eBay, Amazon and bootleg DVD sites, and from a podcast appearance by Parks that Josh attended as a fan. His friend and bandmate Cam Mavian wrote the score. The film is on Prime Video.

About Documentary First

For people who make documentaries and people who love them. Discover how documentaries actually get made, paid for and seen with filmmaker Christian Taylor. Plus DocuView Deja View, where every guest recommends a documentary worth watching. One week, a long-form conversation about a guest's journey, projects and lessons; the next, The Deep Dive, Christian's short solo reflection on one idea from that conversation. Guests have included Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy. Christian directed the award-winning documentary The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Nearly 300 conversations. Listen Notes top 5% worldwide. 4.8 on Apple Podcasts. New episodes every week. Follow the show · About the podcast · Support the show on Patreon

Resources mentioned

This episode is sponsored by Virgil Films Entertainment.

Full transcript

From Punk Rock to Filmmaking

Christian Taylor: Today's episode is brought to you by our distribution partner, Virgil Films and Entertainment. Now, I've worked with Virgil personally, and I can tell you this is a company that champions independent filmmakers, with over 25 years of experience in film distribution and having partnered with brands like National Geographic, OWN, and Major League Baseball. Their films, including the mega hit Super Size Me, the Oscar-nominated Restrepo and the hit documentary Forks Over Knives, have landed on Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, Tubi, Apple TV, and more. They work directly with filmmakers and streaming platforms, and they offer a range of deals to fit different needs. They don't just distribute films, they elevate them, and truthfully, they're just really great people to work with. So, if you want to learn more, head on over to virgilfilms.com. And now, on to the show.

Hi everybody. Welcome to Documentary First. My name is Christian Taylor. I'm your co-host. If you're listening, you know that that is the truth of the story. Anyway, I'm not doing our regular intro because I'm kind of tired of that. So, anyway, we're going to jump right in. Today I have a guest that I'm absolutely delighted to introduce you to. His name is Josh Roush. He's done an incredible movie called Long Lonesome Highway. I can't wait to tell everybody about it. I watched it yesterday, and it's about an actor that I think everybody should know about, but absolutely nobody does. His name is Michael Parks. And thanks to Josh, I hope that the world will get to know this guy. So Josh, thank you so much for being on the show. Really glad to have you.

Josh Roush: Thank you for having me. I am so excited to do this.

Christian: Yeah, it's really going to be great. You have really, I told you your movie was so inspirational to me. I picked up the phone right away and I was like, "Hey, can I talk to you?" Your movie did exactly what every filmmaker wants a movie to do. It encouraged me to do something, which was pick up the phone and say, "Hey, dude. I want to meet Michael Parks. I want to meet everybody else in your movie because I want them to tell me about working with Michael Parks." And I was really inspired by the work that you did and I'm so grateful to get to talk to you today.

Josh: Well, I'm grateful that you had me on. So, thanks. Thanks.

Christian: All right, everybody. I'm going to read a little bit about Josh's bio and then I'm going to just jump right in and we're going to get to know a little bit more about him. So, if you go to anticurrent.com, it's his website, you'll see exactly what I'm about to read you. He lives in North Hollywood, California. He is actually a punk rock filmmaker. And everything listed on his site, there's a bunch of stuff there you can watch, he either wrote, directed, shot, edited, colored, composited, or sound designed. Most of the time he did everything all at once, which I asked him, and it is true, he did all of that for this film, Long Lonesome Highway.

When he's not working on his own content, he's touring with some of the best punk rock bands in the business or he's shooting music videos for them. He has directed one narrative feature, four documentaries, and over 30 music videos, several commercials, and quite a bit more. So, in his young career, he's quite accomplished. He's yet another artist that we haven't heard about yet, but today I think we will hear a lot more. Josh, is that all true? Anything changed?

Josh: It seems so self-aggrandizing when you write it yourself for your website, but yes, it's all true.

Christian: That's awesome. So, I want to know a little more. Why don't you take us back? You know, I think it's fascinating how people got where they are. So, tell me where you were born and how you got in this business in the first place.

Josh: I was born in a little place called Middletown, Ohio. So named because it is placed between, Middletown, between Cincinnati and Dayton. Middletown. We're a clever group out there. At 19, I got the punk rock itch and moved west. Go west, young man. Joined a couple punk rock groups in Orange County, which is like my favorite scene on the planet. And then quickly got like disenchanted with the notion of like four sweaty, smelly, big egos in like a sweat box. And I was like, what can I do that's a creative endeavor that I don't have to answer to other people to? And I chose filmmaking. And come to find out it is a creative process. So now I just do everything myself.

Christian: So did you go to school or did you just teach yourself?

Josh: I did go to Cal State Fullerton for the film program, but honestly, if I had it to do over, I wouldn't. I learned a lot, don't get me wrong, but I learned twice as much, you know, boots on the ground, like being a PA or, you know, anything, honestly.

Christian: Yeah. Well, that's what Ken Burns said in his introduction. I say this again all the time: when I decided to start my documentary, I knew nothing. Did not go to school. As an actress, still an actress, but I thought, you know, I'm going to do this documentary, how hard can it be? I'll just watch Ken Burns' master class. And in the introduction he basically was like, you know, just do it, just get out there and do it, forget film class, you just need to do it. And film class is good and helpful, but you really learn by doing.

Josh: Yeah. And I mean, just watch the things you love. Like, I mean, you know, mimic a style until you invent your own style.

Christian: Yeah. That's right. So what are you most proud of?

Josh: Oh god. I mean, Wrong Reasons, my narrative feature, I'm very, very proud of, because between writing to putting it out the door, I think it was like a 10-year journey. And it's a giant love letter to punk rock. But really, I think I'm the most proud of this documentary, just because I get to put a light on my friend who's passed away.

A 10-Year Road to Long Lonesome Highway

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. So, let's just jump right in. You took us to that. So, this documentary, Long Lonesome Highway, it is a story about an actor named Michael Parks who did pass away. And it is a tribute to everything he was. And you know, when I called you yesterday, I called because it so resonated with me that, I told you that I just recently lost my mom.

Josh: Sorry to hear that.

Christian: And I was so touched that you as a young man spent time with Michael at the end of his life and had the ability to see beyond his crustiness and his, you know...

Josh: Prickliness.

Christian: To see the richness of his soul, and that even though it was difficult, you were able to mine and appreciate who this man was. And not only that, take the mantle of his life to share it with the world. And I just was so impressed with that, because more than your movie, I think I want people to hear that you took this on as a passion project.

Josh: Sure.

Christian: And you took this on with your own money, I heard, with your own time. And there's a lot of filmmakers out there who wonder if, you know, if they should do it. And maybe you wondered that. And I just want to say I feel like what you did was worth it. It was worth the time and it was worth the money. And anyway, just wanted to say that.

Josh: Well, we tried to get this off the ground several times before we eventually had luck with it. Because Michael, you know, he was a dear friend of mine, a sweet man, huge pain, excuse me, pain in the ass. He wanted like 25K to do it and I was just like, buddy, that's not how documentaries work. They're celebrating your legacy. It's bigger than money. He's like, show me the bottom line. I'm like, all right. So I actually found the money and we were getting it off the ground, and about that point, the financier got busted dealing some kind of drug that was like legal, but it was a very gray area, and he went to federal pen, so that went away. So I ended up just having to pick up the pieces and do it myself after he passed.

Christian: Wow, that's fascinating.

Josh: Yeah.

Christian: So, you met him. Tell me how long you've been working on this film.

Josh: It's been about 10 years from soup to... yeah, it's been about 10 years.

Why Tarantino Isn't in the Film

Josh: A lot of that time was spent, you know, I'll just address the elephant in the room. Quentin Tarantino is not in the film. We, you know, we shot this during COVID, so it was always a question. It was always told to us "when," not "if," we get Tarantino, and through...

Christian: Let's talk about why Quentin Tarantino is kind of pivotal here and why you needed him.

Josh: Tarantino once said that Michael Parks was the greatest living actor on the planet. So he put him in a ton of productions. They were very good friends. They actually shot pool together before Tarantino even had a name for himself. But where was I going with that? I'm sorry.

Christian: You were saying that you couldn't get him in the film and you were waiting to get him in the film, and why was he pivotal to this?

Josh: So we kept kicking the can down the road, or he kept kicking the can down the road of his involvement, and eventually, you know, lawyers' fees piled up and we just had to get it out the door. We just had to call it. It's like, you know, we wanted you to be part, so sorry you're not, it's all good, and we just had to move on without him, unfortunately.

Christian: That's too bad.

Josh: I agree. I fully agree. And you know, nobody was too happy about it, but unfortunately at some point you just got to...

Christian: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. And you know, you were able to bring what he said in there, because Michael said it himself, and Michael did talk about, in fact, you know, he was the one that discovered his writing, right? I think, and went way, way, way back when and said he was a good writer. And that was an interesting connection, and so...

Josh: "If he hasn't done anything, he doesn't know everything," is what he said. Yeah.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. So you know, he was in there. And so, you know, you were saying it was 10 years it took you. So tell me when he passed.

Meeting Michael Parks on Tusk

Josh: Oh god, I'm so bad at dates. Everything's just a big blur in my life. I want to say it was 2014. I want to guess.

Christian: Okay. So, you were working on Tusk.

Josh: Yeah.

Christian: And you were working with him. And Kevin Smith is the director of Tusk, and he had put Michael Parks in that film because Kevin Smith had learned to love Michael Parks.

Josh: Yeah. From Quentin's movies. I was actually on Tusk as a behind-the-scenes, like, kind of filmmaker, excuse me, as a behind-the-scenes, kind of documentarian on the movie. And, you know, it became quickly apparent that Michael was not in good health, and he had suffered some brain damage from a big fall. So they needed somebody to just kind of babysit him, for lack of a better term. And, you know, it started out as just this young angry punk rocker and this old Cro-Magnon sitting in a trailer, kind of not really digging each other. And then he just started singing to me one day, and I looked around, I'm like, I'm the only person here, and he just keeps singing to me. And I'm just like, that's an old Johnny Cash tune. He's like, "Oh, you like Cash? I knew Cash." I'm like, go on, continue, please.

Christian: Tell me more.

Josh: Yep. 100%. And then, you know, come to find out he knew Lenny Bruce, he knew Martin Luther King, and not just knew, he was friends with these people, some movers and shakers of the '60s and '70s, and I mean just culture in general. But, you know, the second you tell me you know those kind of people, I'm just enamored.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I loved about you. I could tell right away you were a curious guy. It doesn't surprise me that you were like, what? Because that was what was so interesting about him. He was not at all braggadocious. And he was not going to, he was not going to let his ego really... He wanted you to recognize who he was without being showy, you know.

Josh: And he would try to draw you in, in a way. He'd be like, "Oh yeah, me and my buddy Lenny." And I'm just like, "Wait, San Francisco? Wait, you mean Lenny Bruce?" He's like, "I said Lenny, weren't you listening to me?" It's just like, dude, humble brag, but like...

Christian: Yeah, exactly.

Josh: Draw you in.

Christian: And I think, you know, that's what's so interesting about him, because if you had not stopped to listen, or if you were not curious, all of that would have gone by. And I just, I mean, I guess maybe I've worked now with World War II filmmakers. If people listen, they know I sit there and they're a hundred years old, and so when they say something, that they've been here or been there or done this, you know, 90 years ago, I'm like, what? You know, and it's fascinating. You're sitting there realizing, oh my gosh, I have live history here. Somebody can tell me this. Tell me more. I can't read that in a book. And yes, you had a wonderful opportunity. You were living with history.

Josh: Yeah. And, you know, you said something on the phone call yesterday that I very much agree with. We're very dismissive of older people a lot of the time. We don't take the time to listen or care, or it's just like, okay, old man, you know, move on. And I just think that's so stupid, because they have so much life experience. And like, I'm 40. I don't know still. Like, you know, please teach me all you can.

Christian: Yeah. Well, so keep going. I mean, he sang to you, and I did hear in the film you say, you know, we kind of didn't like each other and he didn't like you either. So, it started to make that turn when he started singing to you. And so keep going.

Josh: Yeah. And then, you know, just slowly I'd pull these stories out of him. And, you know, like I said, he wasn't in the best mental health at the time, so you had to really sit and lean into it and pay attention. But then he'd start just giving me secondhand, thirdhand recollections of like James Dean and just all these actors and all these producers and directors and artists and musicians, and that just meant the absolute world to me. And I think because he recognized that I recognized good talent, not just him but other people, it kind of lowered his wall a little bit and he kind of let me in. To the point where, you know, I became the person, I don't think we talk about it in the doc, but I'd have to sneak him whiskey on set. Like, you know, I'd distract Kevin over here, go to the liquor store, fill up his coffee cup, and then I'd have to ply him before he'd go on stage.

Christian: Hilarious.

Josh: Yeah, he was ornery.

Christian: Well, it's so, yeah, that's so interesting, because I remember in the doc he did say, he did remark about you, you know, something about how he really liked you, or you were a good guy or something. He made some positive comment about you.

Josh: He also compared me to a walrus. So...

Christian: Yes, that's true. That's true.

Josh: He's kind of a dick.

Christian: What did he mean by that?

Josh: It's just something funny to say in the moment, because the walrus is all scarred up in the movie and stuff. He'd always say to me, like, "Why are you, where'd you get all that on your jacket?" I'm like, "I don't know, old man. Why are you so curmudgeonly?"

Christian: Oh, I bet you had the sweetest relationship.

Josh: We did. I mean, yeah. Like, I would literally just go over to his house and just sit and chill with him and listen to stories, and then inevitably we'd go get margaritas or something. You know, I think I helped him move house three or four times, from different rental units. Like, he'd get a deal on a rental unit, then a new deal three months later. So, we'd have to take all this crap and put it in the other one. He meant the world to me. I wouldn't have done that for everybody.

Christian: So how long were you friends with him then before he passed? And then when did you decide, I'm going to make a documentary?

Josh: I mean, I think I had the idea probably during Tusk. It was probably the genesis of the idea. But I don't think I tried to do anything about it until we came back home and we hung out another couple times. Like, he would call me up, "What are you doing, kid? Come on over." And so it was probably during one of those sit-down coffees or margaritas or beers or whatever we were into that week that I actually approached him with the idea, and he was all about it. He's like, "As long as I get paid." And I'm like, "Oh my god, what are you doing to me?"

His Son James, Kevin Smith and Poker

Christian: Oh, so funny. Well, you know, it sounds like to me, I mean, in this doc you brought in his son, which was really... and I think was it his daughter or a stepdaughter?

Josh: Adopted daughter.

Christian: Adopted daughter. Yeah. So, those two were helpful, I think, in pushing along the story. Particularly his son. I didn't get until later in the film that he was actually an actor as well, because I didn't know him. And I didn't understand that his father really had kind of led him down that road. That was really neat to see. And, you know, it was kind of a beautiful relationship that began to develop between the two of them.

Josh: Sure.

Christian: And I'm sure his son was helpful to you in telling the story.

Josh: Yeah. Trisha, you know, his daughter, was just the ultimate cheerleader, and she still is. She reshares everything I do, everything I post. The whole family are just sweethearts of human beings. James and I, I don't think we knew how to deal with each other at first, because he is his actual son, but I'm almost in this adopted grandfatherly kind of thing. But all it took was a few drinks and just talking about his dad, and we immediately were just like, "Okay, cool." Like, we love each other. And since then he starred in my movie Wrong Reasons.

Christian: Oh, that's so awesome. Yeah. You know, it sounds like, I mean, I've been doing a little bit of research, but you've kind of got this family of people that have been doing projects together, and it's got Kevin Smith, and now you've got James, and you, and there's other people in this little family.

Josh: Sure.

Christian: So tell me how all that came together.

Josh: I mean, I started as a fan of Kevin 15 years ago, something like that. Probably, oh god, more than that. Time is just not linear to me, it all just meshes together. But I started as a fan. I would go to poker nights: if you bought like 300 bucks in merch, because he's always selling his face on stupid products, you could play poker with him. So I got in, and everybody was infatuated with him to this kind of crazy level, and I was just making a lot of money playing poker. So I'd keep going back, and I think I did that like seven or eight times. And eventually he's like, "Man, you're a really big fan." I'm like, "Look at my chip stack right now, dude. I am a big fan, but I'm kind of making coin over here." I think that impressed him.

And eventually, a guy named JC Rifenberg was shooting his podcasts, and there was like a Twitter call, like, "Hey, you know, can anybody come run a camera?" So I started doing crowd camera on a lot of his podcasts. And then that became me actually running one of his podcasts. And then that became me doing the behind the scenes on his movies. And it just kind of, I mean, I've worked with Kevin in so many capacities. I was his daughter's bodyguard for two years.

Christian: Wow.

Josh: Yeah. Like, just, you know, you need something done, call Josh.

Christian: Yeah.

Josh: But...

Christian: And so that then kind of leads to, you know, let's do projects together, I suppose.

Josh: Truly. Yeah. And, you know, he was the king of the DVD, the Blu-ray. So he always loved having a lot of behind the scenes. So I became the, like, because those bonus features and documentaries on movies I love meant so much to me, I was like, "Hey, can I take that role now that the old guy kind of moved on?" And that is what led me into narrative feature-length stuff.

Christian: Okay. Okay. Well, that's wonderful. I mean, gosh, your poker playing really helped you with your film career. Good.

Josh: And I'm not even that good. It's just that they were that bad.

Christian: That's pretty awesome. That's great. I love it. Well, it's so interesting, because everybody's path to filmmaking is different. That's what that shows you, you know. And it also shows you, you just have to take risks and follow opportunity where it is, because you just really never know. I'm sure he's been a big fan and a big help of what you're doing as well.

Josh: Oh, yeah. For sure. I mean, he did help finance Long Lonesome Highway. Kevin is like, just, you know, I talk about him because he's a good friend. And if I don't talk about somebody, then I probably don't like you. But he is just the best dude on the planet. The most generous, the sweetest. Lends his name out, more importantly, which is, you know, big in this industry. Yeah, I can't say enough good things about the boy. He's also a pain in the ass, too. But...

Christian: That's awesome. The best ones usually are. The best ones usually are.

Josh: True.

Christian: Okay. So, you know, you decided that you're going to make this movie. You couldn't get Quentin Tarantino, so you decide you're going to move it along. Michael wants 25K to make this movie. You're like, I can't really do this. So you really can't get started until after he passes. Okay. So, he passes. Now you're like, okay, I can do this movie. Now, your movie has a lot of archival, like a lot of photos, really, really, really cool photos. I loved the archival photos of him.

Josh: Thank you.

How Does Fair Use Work?

Christian: Yeah, great archival. You've got great movie clips. Just super, super awesome stuff, which, I mean, that archival is not easy, particularly if you don't have an archival producer. So, how did all that happen?

Josh: Thank God for fair use in the United States. I'll say that. We got Donaldson + Callif, I think, were our lawyers, and they're the name in fair use. So, you know, it was so weird, because we finished this project probably eight years ago, seven years ago, and we were, you know, waiting on Tarantino to add him to the documentary, never got him. When we decided we had to move on, we had to reclear everything with the lawyers. So that was a brand new lawyer bill and stuff. And in the process it kind of worked out better, because some of the photos, I guess the photo rights in the United States for fair use have changed. So they're less liable to clear you for fair use if it's a photo than if it's a clip.

So a lot of the photos of Lew Wasserman that were in the original edit became clips, like with him on stage with Alfred Hitchcock, because more sources had become available from the Academy and stuff like that. So it really kind of worked to our benefit, from a movie-making perspective, to have waited that time, because a lot of the photos got subbed out with real clips. But yeah, I just bought everything Michael Parks on eBay, on Amazon, on bootleg DVD websites, ripped everything myself, upconverted it as much as possible. Does that answer your question?

Christian: Yeah. So why don't you tell our listeners about fair use, because that can be very confusing and difficult to understand.

Josh: Sure. Fair use is basically implied in the Constitution: that anything that is relevant in our culture can be used to comment on. So we can comment on that thing. So we can reuse a piece of media, be that a movie or whatever, as long as we're talking about why it's socially, like, unique or interesting or transformative in our culture.

Christian: Right. But there are limits to that.

Josh: Yes.

Christian: So, what are the limits?

Josh: Well, I mean, I'm not a lawyer, so don't take me, you know, completely literally, but it's usually like under 30 seconds. You have to have somebody talking about why. Like, you have to transform the piece and talk about why it's culturally relevant or socially relevant. So you can't just throw in a Michael Parks clip. You have to have somebody talking about his role in that thing, or why he's an actor making those choices in that clip, kind of.

Christian: Right. Right. Yeah. You did have a lot of his stuff in there. So basically what you're saying is you really didn't have to pay for the archival that you were using.

Josh: Truly. There were a few photos that we had to pay rights for, because Lew's, you know, family, I heard, were particularly litigious. But other than that, yeah, we didn't really pay for very many clips at all.

Christian: Okay. Now, another thing I noticed was there wasn't a lot of music, or you didn't rely a lot on soundtrack or comp music, right? Talk to me about what you decided to do where music was concerned.

Josh: Well, my buddy Cam Mavian scores everything I've ever done. We're in a band together called Empired. And he's just one of my nearest and dearest. So he did the score for this, as well as Wrong Reasons and all the other stuff. So there is a little bit of music throughline, but music gets kind of crunchy when it comes to fair use. They're very, very litigious, and they'll come after you in a heartbeat. So we used a couple tracks of Michael's, because he had like six albums.

Christian: Yeah, let's talk about that. I mean, he was a singer. You talked about how he sang to you in his trailer. I was so shocked to hear that he was also a singer. I mean, that's just amazing.

Josh: Yeah, he was a man of all seasons. He could literally do anything. And he would just get real silent and still, and then look at you, and then just recite poetry right into your face. It was really intimidating and weird and beautiful, and I've never met a creature like this on the planet.

Christian: Yeah, that's great. Yeah. So you did use some of his stuff, but briefly. Really?

Josh: Very briefly.

Christian: Yeah.

Making a Documentary for $50,000

Josh: Yeah. I mean, if we would have had a budget, this would have been a whole different documentary. This was just doing the best we could with what we had.

Christian: Well, I mean, I will tell you, you know, your budget was, you want to say what your budget was?

Josh: It was 40, that ended up being about 50 after we went through lawyers' fees a second time.

Christian: Yeah. So, I mean, it's impressive. Really, really impressive that you made this film for that amount of money. You know, I've been talking to my distributor, and he's telling us these days, do not make anything over $200,000 if you want to see any profit. And you know, it's tough even at 50K to see any profit. I know that because I've been trying to make a profit on my film, and I spent over 500K, and it's taken me, you know, eight years to see profit from anything. We're still not there. So, you know, it's really amazing that you made this film with that little money, and kudos to you for that.

Josh: Thank you. Yeah. I mean, of course I want Kevin to get his money back, and I want to get my money back, but profit was never the motivation for this. I knew that it's probably never going to make any money. Like, when we came out last month on DVD, the distributor was just like, "How much do you want to sell it for?" I was like, "The bare minimum. What will you let me sell this for?" So I think it's on Amazon for like $10.81, because they were just like, "What are you doing?" I was just like, "It's not about that." I mean, I know it should be, but it's not for me. Like, I just want, you know, if that two, three bucks extra is going to make a difference if somebody buys it, sell it cheaper. I could give a damn. Put it on torrent. Please steal my movie. Like, I'm happy with it.

Christian: Yeah, it's a great film, actually. And can anyone stream it yet? Are you still working on that?

Josh: Still working on that. I think at the end of the month it'll probably come out to SVOD, AVOD, all the ad-based, or, you know, you can probably purchase it on Amazon and iTunes for $9.99 or something like that.

Christian: Yeah. Well, we're going to help with that if we can. So we can get you there. Well, you know, I always ask filmmakers, is there anything you would like to talk about that I haven't asked you? Like, what behind-the-scenes stories would you like to share, or what was the most difficult thing that you overcame, or what is the thing you're most proud of in this film?

Why Josh Stepped In Front of the Camera

Josh: I mean, the thing I'm most proud of is just that we got it out the door, and that I think it does a service to Michael's legacy. What I would like to talk about is that I hate that I'm in it. Like, I suck in front of a camera. Like, I suck on this interview. I'm so good behind the camera. The second you put one in front of me, I'm garbage. But I screened an early cut of this where I'm not involved in it to a guy named Scott Mosier. He directed, or he produced, a documentary called A Band Called Death, which is a fantastic punk rock documentary, but he was Kevin's producer for years and years.

And I screened it for him and he was just like, "It's not great, dude." He's like, "Why do I care about this? You're just showing clips of this old guy. I need a throughline to connect me to the person." He's like, "You need to be in it." I'm like, "Wrong guy. Wrong guy." He's just like, "Look, if you're not in it, I don't care." He's like, "Get over yourself and put yourself in it." So I had to. And...

Christian: Listen, you're talking to a woman who said the exact same thing about her film. And I'm going to say that I completely agree with him. You are wrong about yourself. You are fantastic here, because you know why? You're you. You're you. You're nobody else. And you're intriguing and you're interesting because you're you. You're not trying to be anybody else. And in that film, you know, it did take me a while to figure out, oh, hey, wait a minute. It's this guy. It's this guy that decided to make this film because he saw something in Michael Parks. It took me a while to figure it out, but by the end I was like, I've got it. And then I was like, wow. So, he was right.

But here's the thing. There's a line in La La Land. And people laugh at me when I bring this up. La La Land is one of my favorite movies. Shame on me, but it's true. La La Land was the inspiration for my film, The Girl Who Wore Freedom, which is a World War II documentary. Makes no sense. Except there's this wonderful line in there where Mia is telling Sebastian, you know, initially, that she hates jazz, and he's like, "What? You hate jazz?" You know, basically she doesn't know what jazz is. In the end, you know, he goes and joins this band, which is really new jazz. And she asks him, you know, why are you doing this? You don't, you know, love jazz. And he's like, well, you don't even like jazz. And she goes, I do like jazz. I like jazz because you like jazz. You made me like jazz.

You know, people like jazz because you love jazz. And it's true. When we have a passion about something and we share our passion with other people, it makes other people love it. It's because, you know, we can see through your eyes. And that's what happened in this movie. I was able to see through your eyes this wonderful person, and that would not have happened if you took yourself out, really, because we would not have been able to see what you see. You saw...

Josh: I suck in front of a camera.

Christian: But the thing is, you know, that's the thing. We have to get beyond that. And the only way that I know that is, I'm a voice-over actor as well. And so I started off being the same thing. Oh, I sound terrible. Oh, I'm awful. I'm the same way in front of a camera. I suck. I look terrible. I can't do this.

Josh: Oh, you're great.

Christian: What we're doing is, we have this idea of who we are, or who we should be, or what we should look like, and we're judging ourselves from the outside and thinking that other people are judging us. And what I saw in that movie is that I saw a young man who has a tender heart, who has the ability to appreciate a man that other people did not. And for me, in this life, that is what is valuable.

A Man Ahead of His Time

Christian: And you know what's so amazing about Michael Parks, and what I learned, is that he was a man before his time.

Josh: That's the thing.

Christian: You know what happened in this film? What we learned is he was this amazing actor, like Quentin Tarantino said, but he blew up his acting career because he told his amazing agent to take a hike, and he didn't want to make this certain movie. And so, you know, he got this reputation of being difficult to deal with. Didn't get cast during the most castable time in his life. And you know, he had this reputation. Now these days, right, people want that. They want that fight. They want that individuality. He's an overcomer. That's why at this second stage of his life he began to be wanted, because he was thinking for himself, right? All of these actors now who've become directors or producers or whatever, it's commonplace, because they don't want to be thought of as actors that are just told to do something. They have a brain. They have a point of view. They want to have a say. And that's where we've come in our society. He was just ahead of his time. And...

Josh: Agreed. Yeah. I mean, I wanted the movie as a whole to be an exercise in, like, you know, if you're going to do it your own way, there can be consequences.

Christian: True.

Josh: Because, you know, I worked at Sony for nine years, and I was just like, I can't do corporate anymore. I got to get out of this. And I started making films and stuff my own way. But I'll probably never be hugely commercially successful, because I'm doing it my own way. I refuse to cater and do all the crap that, you know, most people usually get behind to be successful. And I'm just like, I'd rather just have a low threshold of success and eke out an existence and do it my way. So I think I saw a lot of that in him.

Christian: Sure. And, you know, truthfully, what you're saying there is, what do I value in life?

Josh: Yeah.

Christian: Right. At some point, you made a decision of what was most important to you, and looked at what the world decides is success, and decided, you know what, I don't want that. I want a different quality of life, and I want to enjoy my life, and I'm going to try to do the best I can, and that may mean I'm successful and it may not, but I'm going to be happy while I'm doing it.

Josh: True.

Christian: And you know, I do hope in society, you know, that we can begin to be more like that. I mean, Michael Parks did that. He accepted the consequences of that. And what was so fascinating is that there were lots of consequences in his life. Like, I mean, it was crazy to me. He lost his brother.

Josh: Yeah.

Christian: He lost a child. He lost a wife. He had such incredible loss. He lost a career.

Josh: Yeah.

Christian: This guy.

Josh: Yeah.

Christian: So he suffered so much loss, and then at one point near the end of his life, he lost his body. Like, he had a huge accident and, I mean, he was in a coma and his body was broken, you know? I mean, this guy was an overcomer, you know. I wrote this down: he was true to himself, but he had a rich life. He was a man before his time, you know. And you have Kurt Russell in your movie, playing, like, Kurt Russell, talking about this dude, how he looked up to him, and Kurt Russell's son.

Josh: Yeah.

Christian: And who else do you have? Jason, uh, Justin Long. Yeah. Long talking about, I think that was hilarious. Justin Long's relationship to him was similar to yours, right?

Josh: Truly. Truly. Yeah. And none of us knew how to handle him when he came to Tusk, because, you know, he's a legend in a lot of people's eyes, but also, man, he was hard to have a conversation with because of the brain trauma. And that came across as a lot of aggressiveness from him for a little bit. Like, you can see it in the outtakes of Tusk, like, "What the... is the line?" Like, that poor script supervisor, man. I shook his hand afterwards. I was like, "Buddy, you did the Lord's work, man. You got through it."

Christian: Yeah.

Josh: He was just like, "Thank you for saying that."

Christian: Well, you know, he was so accomplished at memorizing lines, and he was so accomplished at character stuff, and I can imagine how frustrating it must have been for him to not have that capacity anymore.

Josh: Truly. Truly. And doing that work, and we talk about it in the doc, really kind of pulled him out of that stupor and brought him back to probably 60, 70% capacity, which, you know, for a guy like that is still got to be hard. But you could get the stories out of him a lot easier. He'd sing a lot clearer. It was really unique to see somebody kind of overcoming brain trauma in real time.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. You don't get to see that very often. No. I mean, that's what I'm saying. You know, he was an incredible lesson in so many ways, if you stop to look at his life. And that's what I thought was so interesting in your film. You look at his life and you're like, "Holy shit." Like, if you stop to look at what he overcame, he could have quit at so many places.

Josh: Yeah.

Christian: Just quit life. He could have taken his life. He could have quit working. He could have blown up. And maybe there were phases where he did not function well in relationships or whatever. I'm sure he's human.

Josh: Yeah.

Christian: But he got back up. He got back up on that horse, or he got back up on that motorcycle. He kept riding, right?

Josh: Totally.

The Five Stages of an Actor

Christian: And I just think there's just so much to love. I'm going to end with this. My favorite thing, and you started with it and you ended with it, was what he said: the five stages of an actor. Yeah. That was brilliant.

Josh: Oh...

Christian: Brilliant.

Josh: I mean, we didn't have a lot of footage of the man. So that podcast became so crucial. And I was in the audience for that podcast as a fan that day. So I knew the content was there, which is a reason I go back to it a lot. But yeah, he...

Christian: If you don't mind, I'm going to play that on our...

Josh: Sure. Oh my god. Please, please.

Christian: I would love to play, you know, some little clips. I'm not even going to say what the five stages of an actor are, because I want to play it, but it's so powerful as an actress, because it's so true.

Josh: Yeah.

Christian: But it's not just about an actor. It's almost just about anybody in the creative field, really.

Josh: 100%.

Christian: And, you know, if you as a creative person live for that, I don't think you'll live.

Josh: Yeah. Truly.

Christian: Because I don't think that you can live your life trying to, you know, achieve the five stages of an actor. And, you know, I really don't, because he really, he didn't.

Josh: Yeah. Agreed.

Christian: He didn't make those five stages, really.

Josh: Yep. Yeah. I just want to leave behind some cool stuff when I depart. And I think he was the same way.

Christian: Yeah. Well, he left a lot of cool stuff behind. And you're 40. You're 40 and you've already... No, I'm about to be 59 in December. I can't even say those words, but...

Josh: I'm a very hard 40. It's been a rough one.

Christian: Well, you've got a lot of years ahead of you, I hope. And I hope you will keep making movies.

Josh: I definitely will.

Christian: And I...

Josh: I can't thank you enough for having me on. This has been spectacular. And anytime I get a chance to shine a light on Michael, I really am appreciative.

Christian: Well, we are going to shine a light on him. I want other people to know who he is. And yeah, if you guys get a chance, please, you know, you've got to see this movie. So we're going to find a way. We're going to put links here underneath, you know, in our comments. We're going to share things on social media. Hopefully, you know, you can reshare them, too. Hopefully, you'll get some of the people in your film to reshare them, too. That will help us.

Josh: Truly.

Christian: Yeah. So we'll try to get the word out there.

Josh: Thank you so much.

Burden of Dreams and Werner Herzog

Christian: Yeah. You're welcome. Super nice to meet you. Now, we have to do one other thing. It's our favorite segment. It's called DocuView Deja View. Okay. All right. In this segment, we ask our guests to bring a documentary to share with people. So, think about a documentary that you like that you think our listeners, or viewers if they're watching, should see.

Josh: Burden of Dreams, by Werner Herzog.

Christian: Why?

Josh: Because it is man against nature, man against self, man against society. Just overcoming the stupidest of self-imposed situations, and just refusing to give up in the face of everything going wrong at once. I think it's just a testament to what creative can be, while also showcasing how stupid it can be. And Werner Herzog's a god to me. So anything by him is great.

Christian: Well, I've never heard of that. So, thank you very much for that recommendation. All right, everybody. You've heard it from Josh. Got to make sure you check it out. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to Documentary First, where we believe everybody has a story to tell and you can be the one to tell it. Bye, everybody.

[Music]

Michael Parks: You know the five stages of an actor. The first stage is, who's Michael Parks? Second stage is, get me Michael Parks. Third stage is, get me a Michael Parks type. And fourth is, get me a young Michael Parks. The fifth stage is, hold...

[Music]

Christian: Hey everybody, this podcast is brought to you by Documentary First Productions, and we need your support so that we can keep preserving history. If you could go over and grab some merch or watch our films at documentaryfirst.com, you'll help us keep making awesome documentaries and sharing the stories that matter, and also bring amazing filmmakers and their wonderful films to the world. So, thank you so much for listening, and thank you for visiting documentaryfirst.com. Follow Documentary First on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn. This podcast was produced by Documentary First, edited and mixed by Jason Hoban, with music by Jeff Kurtenacker.

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