Nick Bruckman Remembers Ady Barkan | Not Going Quietly

Documentary First, Episode 211. Christian Taylor talks with Nick Bruckman, director of Not Going Quietly, about a week after Ady Barkan's death. 49 minutes. Released November 23, 2023.

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How do you talk about your film when its subject has just died?

Nick Bruckman had done about 200 interviews about Not Going Quietly, his documentary about the health care activist Ady Barkan. This was the first one after Ady died of complications of ALS on November 1, 2023. Nick had just come back from the memorial that weekend, and before talking about the film at all, he wanted people to know who Ady was. "Forgetting my film," he says, Ady was one of the most incredible civil rights leaders of our generation.

In Episode 211 of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor talks with Nick about how the film began. In 2018, Liz Jaff, who filmed Ady's now famous exchange with a senator on a plane, called Nick to ask if his company, People's Television, could make a short launch video for Ady's new group, Be A Hero. Nick flew to Santa Barbara expecting a sad promotional piece. Instead he found a man joking about his abs with his wife. By the end of that first interview, Nick was asking to make a feature. Ady had only about six months of speech left, so they moved fast.

What made it a movie, Nick says, was Ady's plan: get an RV, find other sick people, and roll up to members of Congress with their stories. Nick believes Ady's whole story "is about how the personal is political," so he worked to make the scenes at home and the activism feel like one story. He lived with the Barkan family for long stretches, in an extra bedroom in the garage, so he could film dinners without a crew. Funders passed at first. "I think they thought it sounded too sad," he says. But he wanted something life-affirming, because knowing Ady made him feel better.

In this episode, you'll learn

• Why Nick's first interview after Ady Barkan's death began with Ady
• How a two-minute launch video for Be A Hero became a feature documentary
• Why Nick believes Ady's story "is about how the personal is political"
• How a documentary can build empathy across the political aisle
• Why Nick lived with Ady's family to film dinners without a crew
• How Bradley Whitford and the Duplass brothers came on as executive producers
• Why Nick says "documentary film is all editing"
• How POV, Greenwich Entertainment and Hulu split the rights
• Why Nick won't publish a budget while a film is still being sold
• His two pieces of advice: get great at one craft, and find your tribe

Questions and answers

What is the documentary Not Going Quietly about?

Not Going Quietly is a 2021 documentary directed by Nicholas Bruckman about Ady Barkan, a young father and health care activist diagnosed with ALS in 2016. After his exchange with a senator on a plane went viral, Barkan co-founded Be A Hero and traveled the country with other sick people to press members of Congress on health care. The film premiered at SXSW in 2021, where it won the Audience Award and a Special Jury Award.

When did Ady Barkan die?

Ady Barkan died on November 1, 2023, at age 39, of complications from ALS. He had been diagnosed in 2016 and told he had two to four years to live. Nick Bruckman recorded this conversation about a week later. He told Christian it was his first interview since Ady's passing.

How did Not Going Quietly get made?

Nick Bruckman met Ady Barkan in 2018, when Be A Hero asked his company, People's TV, to make a short launch video. By the end of the first interview, Nick had asked to make a feature. He started filming on spec with his company's resources, then brought in executive producers Bradley Whitford and Mark and Jay Duplass and, later, grants. Nick says the edit took a year, which was probably where most of the money went.

How much did Not Going Quietly cost to make?

Nick says the film was made for six figures, which he describes as typical for indie documentaries, while bigger celebrity films are often in the low seven figures. He doesn't publish exact budgets while a film is still in the sales process, because it can weaken a negotiation with distributors. He offers to talk numbers privately with filmmakers who reach out.

Where can I watch Not Going Quietly?

Nick explains that POV, the PBS documentary series, took the broadcast rights, Greenwich Entertainment gave it a theatrical run, and Hulu became its streaming home. It's available to rent or buy on Apple TV, and the film's website lists more places to watch.

What advice does Nick Bruckman give young documentary filmmakers?

Two things. First, get really good at one craft that's in or near the industry, like color correcting, gaffing or lighting, so you can work around filmmaking and make connections. Second, find your tribe. Nick calls documentary "a very collective team sport," and says many of the camera people who shot Not Going Quietly also shot his next film, Minted.

Chapters

Times match the YouTube video.

• 0:00 Meet Nick Bruckman
• 3:19 Losing Ady Barkan
• 10:24 The Personal Is Political
• 13:46 Empathy Across the Aisle
• 21:11 How the Film Began
• 26:18 Standing Ovation
• 29:51 The Dinner Table
• 32:03 Budget, POV and Hulu
• 35:19 Minted and NFTs
• 40:28 From 9/11 to Filmmaking
• 44:00 Find Your Tribe

Watch the film

Not Going Quietly is available to rent or buy on Apple TV. More ways to watch are on the official site. Nick also talks about Minted, which had just premiered at the 2023 Tribeca Festival.

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About the guest

Nicholas Bruckman is an Emmy-nominated director and the founder and CEO of People's Television, a studio with offices in New York and Washington, D.C. that makes films and campaigns for independent projects, brands, foundations and social movements. He wrote and directed Not Going Quietly, executive produced by Mark and Jay Duplass and Bradley Whitford, which won the Audience Award and a Special Jury Award at SXSW 2021, earned two News and Documentary Emmy nominations, and aired on POV. He also directed Minted, about the rise and fall of NFTs, and co-directed The Price of Milk, a docuseries about the "Got Milk?" campaign. He grew up in New York City and studied at the State University of New York at Purchase. Nick's website | People's TV | Instagram

Related conversations

Nick came back to Documentary First in Episode 223 to talk about Minted, and again for The Price of Milk: Nick Bruckman on the Got Milk Campaign. For another conversation about the people a film follows becoming its partners, hear Escaping Twin Flames: Cecilia Peck and Inbal Lessner.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Follow the show | Support on Patreon

Full transcript

Christian: Welcome to Documentary First, an inside look at documentary filmmaking. I'm your host, Christian Taylor. Unfortunately, Jason Rugg is out sick today, so we are gonna have to hope we can get along without him. I'm joined by a very capable filmmaker, however, so I do think that we will be okay. I wanna stop before I welcome this amazing filmmaker and just say hello and thank you to our new listeners. I've had some interesting things happen over the last couple of weeks. and we have had an amazing number of people join our Patreon and sign up for our podcast. So I just want to say how much that means to me personally, and we really love to have you listening to the show. All right, now onto the show. Right now we have joining us, Nick Bruckman. He is an amazing guy. Nick, I'm so happy to have you here. I've just finished watching your two most recent films, and I just, I'm now a huge fan. So thank you so much for being on the show.

Nick Bruckman: Thank you. Yeah, this is great. I love that you do this and shine the spotlight on, I sometimes think documentary is sort of the stepchild of entertainment and so, you know, it's really great that folks with a platform are doing this. So thank you.

Christian: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, for me, I'm obsessed with documentary filmmaking, as I'm sure you are. I mean, you've also made some narrative films and some shorts, I've seen that as well, but documentary filmmaking is just so life-changing, not only to me, but to so many others. So I just feel like more people need to know how to make them and need to watch them. So first of all, I wanna give your bio, which it's much longer than what I'm about to read. And if people get a moment, they could go and read Nick's bio on his own website. You have two websites, one a personal one, and I think it's nicknyc.com. Okay, that's his personal one. You'll find out lots about him there, as well as People's TV, which is his company. And we'll talk about that later. But for right now, I'm going to dive into his bio. He is the founder of People's TV and director of the documentary film, Not Going Quietly, which is the one we're here to talk about today, primarily.

Nick Bruckman: at nickny.com.

Christian: It has just been released and honored with two news and documentary Emmy award nominations. Not Going Quietly is a documentary that is executive produced by the Duplass Brothers and Bradley Whitford, and it follows a father and disability rights activist, Addy Barkman, or Barkin, who followed his diagnosis, following his diagnosis with ALS headed to Washington, DC to expose the Fishers and the American healthcare system. Nick wrote and directed this documentary and since its release, it has left an echo in the activist spaces and the world of filmmaking. It has received three IDA nominations for best picture, best director and best writing and a nomination for the Critics Choice Awards at also, and then, I mean, I just got to keep going at South by Southwest, not going quietly won the audience award and the special jury and he was pre-selected at the Tribeca Film Festival. He also wrote and directed another fantastic film we wanna talk about today called, Mented, which blew my mind. So let's dive in. Nick, you've been super busy because I think these two films have just been released recently and it's just an incredible body of work. So talk a little bit about what's been going on in your life the last year.

Nick Bruckman: Yeah, thank you so much. It's been, yeah, really exciting chapter, not going quietly. Originally was set to come out right when the pandemic happened in 2020. And it was a really upside down moment because I'd spent three years from 2018 to 2020 working on that film and telling Adi's story. The pandemic was this huge setback. We were supposed to be at Tribeca. They canceled the festival along with everything else in the world. And we ended up having a whole nother year to work on it and continue to follow Audie's story until the movie finally premiered at South by Southwest 2021, and then went on to play at the 2021 Tribeca Film Festival when they had outdoor only screenings. This was still the height of the pandemic. And the ride for the film has been really incredible in terms of the awards and recognition, but also just seeing communities, activists, people around the country recognizing Audie's story from grassroots to... Capitol Hill, we screened the film inside the Rules Committee in the Capitol with about five members of Congress in attendance, including Nancy Pelosi, and to the Emmys, which was just a month ago, which was going to be the closing chapter on that whole kind of journey of telling Adi's story when that journey ended very tragically last week. very abruptly and unexpectedly when Adi Barkin passed away due to complications of ALS. And I have done about 200 interviews about this film for every platform and podcast, but you're the first person that I'm speaking to since Adi's passing last week. So I'm quite emotional about that. And that, you know, it's not something that I can begin an interview without starting with because... forgetting my film, this person is one of the most, I think, incredible civil rights leaders of our generation. And, you know, a lot of people are reaching out to me about him and that they're glad to have my film. And I appreciate that, but I really, the film aside, I want people to know about him and the impact he made. And of course, to support his movement and his family in this really difficult time. This only happened a week ago, so it's very painful.

Christian: The fact that I just met him yesterday, now I'm very emotional because of course that was going to be the first thing that I asked you. Because there is no way not to be emotionally connected to this guy after you watch his story. And that is what I loved about your film is that it was so personal, so personal and intimate and you felt like you were part of the family or you felt like you were part of his team. Just because how you silently inserted yourself and how open and vulnerable he and his family were. Um, so I'm heartbroken to hear that. I can't imagine how you're feeling.

Nick Bruckman: Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry to share that. Yeah, it's very, it's very, very fresh. I was just at, I just came back from the memorial this weekend. And the thing I'll say is, you know, there, ALS is a brutal and terrible disease. You'll see that in the film itself. The film ends with a happy ending of Adi celebrating the growth of his family and the impact that he's made. But what I'll say is that when we began the project, it was really never sure in any way that Adi would be here when it ended. And he was originally given two to four years to live in 2016 when he was diagnosed, and here we are in 2013. And he made more of those seven years, and it was 39 years, than almost anybody in a lifetime. And it's incredibly poignant for me because I just turned 39 myself. And we were the same age. We come from similar backgrounds, both from Jewish kind of intellectual, secular academic families. His parents live on the Upper West Side of Manhattan right around the corner from where I grew up. And when I first saw him, I just knew that this could be me, I could have gotten this diagnosis just as well as you could or anybody else. And what he chose to do with it is, you know, there's kind of a joke in the film about how you shouldn't call disabled people inspiring. It's sort of a trope that label is described on them, but there's really just no other word for it. His very presence and just looking at him. makes you ask the question, is what I'm doing important? Is the way I'm spending my life important? And that's why he had such an effect on people all the way from me and these activists and his family to Joe Biden and Kamala Harris and Bernie Sanders, all of whom just wrote incredible tributes to him online. What you think of those politicians not withstanding his The fact that they're saying this about him is because they know how important his voice was and that they want their supporters to know that they stood behind him because of how much he meant to them. So, you know, I say it not in credit to the politicians who I know we all have mixed feelings about, including Adi did, but to his legacy and to the organizers and activists who he inspired.

Christian: You know, truthfully, it really doesn't matter what side of the aisle you're on when you watch this film because either side has people like Audie, you know, no matter what the issues are, particularly where healthcare is concerned. Healthcare is not a Republican or Democratic problem. Everybody has issues with healthcare no matter what your politics are. So everybody is lobbying the government one way or the other for what their causes are. this film does, I think, pull you into the high stakes nature of that. And it also shows you that we should go and speak to our representatives that we have elected to office and that we have the right to do that. Um, you're right. I mean, he is so incredibly inspiring and bold and brave because I don't know that I would be willing to even fly on a plane and walk to my Congressman's door. and knock on there and just demand that they talk to me because I wanted an answer. I want them to hear what I, I mean, it just was incredibly brave. And I think too about his family. I mean, he gave up so much time during a crucial time. We watch him lose his voice during that time. So to me, it was just unbelievable that his family encouraged him to go and sacrifice so that he could have that special time for himself and for others.

Nick Bruckman: Yeah, his family is absolutely incredible. And I think one of the messages of the film is that the personal is political. You talked about this idea of going and sharing your story. And I think that's kind of the macro. Let me put it this way. To me, the film is a symbol of what all documentary filmmakers and documentary film lovers believe, which is that stories have power. And Adi's movement in the Be a Hero movement is not just about Adi's story. It's him using his ailing voice to lift other people up. And that's what really, when I knew this was a feature film was when Adi said, and we're gonna go county to county, and I'm gonna ask people about their healthcare stories. And then we're gonna bring those stories to Congress. We're gonna bring them to their representative. We're gonna find their representatives wherever they are and confront them with their story. Yeah, I lost you. I'll pause. Okay, I am, but your picture disappeared. It's... Oh, it says 99% uploading. Should I read it? Okay. Yeah, his family is really incredible. And you talked about the intimacy of the movie. What I really wanted to achieve cinematically and narratively was to show the show. Adi's whole story is about how the personal is political, about how what happens at home, how much time you have with your family is a political issue because it's a healthcare issue. And What I, I wanted the very intimate and personal scenes with him and the political scenes to feel very integrated to each other. So it wasn't like there was these activist chapters and then the chapters at home, but actually to try to show. how even the activism is a celebration of family and joy and community and friendship, much in the way we treat each other on a personal level is a political act. So that was kind of one of the symbolic North stars we had in the editing of the film, which was very complicated. And we had hundreds of hours of footage to know what the film was about. And... Rewinding a bit to why I wanted to make the film, I think anybody who makes or appreciates documentary film will understand this, that what got me really excited about it and what made me realize there was a feature when I first started talking to Adi was not just how incredible and funny and sarcastic and inspiring he was, but when he told me, yeah, so we're gonna get on the road, we're gonna get an RV. and I'm gonna go around and find other sick people, and then we're gonna drive them to, we're gonna roll up in our wheelchairs to the members of Congress, and we're gonna confront those members of Congress with their stories. And we're gonna make these social media clips and confront and close that gap between our representatives and the people. And we're gonna do that using people's everyday stories. That to me was what the movie is about and what all documentary films are about, which is that stories have power and they can persuade and they can uplift and they can mobilize. And when, what I think, what happens in the film, of course, Adi doesn't win universal healthcare and that fight carries on after his passing recently. But I think what it did show is this, you can't always convince the politicians, but the witnessing, the sharing of the story has power to make people come together and continue to fight. And that's what I hope the film does. That's what I believe Adi does. And Martin Luther King said, moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. So I've been thinking about that a bit. And I think Adi certainly bent.

Christian: for justice, yeah.

Nick Bruckman: bent the arc a little bit.

Christian: I think it's interesting because when you talk about the personal and the political coming together, I did work in Washington. I worked for quite a while in politics. And the thing that I found fascinating is that you could be on the right side of Adi's political leanings. But watching this film and seeing how his personal side and personal story, you can't other him. So what I see out, you know, as I'm looking at our political landscape right now, what everybody's trying to do is other the other side. And just they are just an idea or they're people that are, you know, protesting and they are a problem or they're creating chaos, or they just want to disrupt disrupt. But when you actually see somebody who is, you know, also failing because of this challenge of going to talk to his representatives. There is no way you cannot feel compassion for him, particularly when you hear about the problems with healthcare. How hard it is just to get a breathing machine or how hard it is just to get a wheelchair. Even if we weren't going for universal healthcare, how about let's make it easier to care for our loved ones in our healthcare system. So I thought that was beautiful that, you know, no matter what side you're on in the political spectrum, you have to care about Adi and his situation and the other people that are in his boat after watching your film.

Nick Bruckman: Yeah, thanks for saying that. I mean, I think, again, knowing this is a documentary-focused podcast, that's why I wanted to get into this medium in the first place. You know, I do have strong political beliefs, obviously, and many of those align with Audis. I do believe that the government should provide healthcare. Ultimately, we should move towards a universal healthcare system that much of the... Western European countries and Canada and other places enjoy. But I don't think that the way, I think that the way, unless people can walk in the shoes of the other, and this applies across, this applies across issues. It's not about healthcare, it applies to war, it applies to the many current conflicts in the world that we won't get into here and are outside of. my scope of my films, but this is a powerful medium to build empathy and create connection across borders. And Adi was the perfect metaphor and the perfect vehicle for that. We went all kinds of places with him outside of the Beltway. We were at rural. trailer parks in Utah, and these people were not Democrats that he was meeting, and they loved him. You know, he just had the ability to connect with everybody, partly because he's just, you know, so funny and self-deprecating and so, you know, purposeful. But also, I think, because when people see him in their state, they're confronted with their own mortality. and what a life of meaning means. So yeah, and these thoughts have been cutting me more deeply over the last couple of weeks as I think about what his legacy means. But I, yeah, I'm very proud to be a part of his story and for the film to have been a small platform. And I will mention just for viewers who do see it and are energized about these issues on a political level. to Google the Be a Hero Fund because Adi's organization lives on and lives on beyond him and is a really important and powerful cause and is a way that people can get involved and support his legacy.

Christian: You do such honor to him and I just am so thankful that you spent all that time with him. I do wanna get into a little bit of the actual filmmaking next, but I wanna share this one thing. I found it fascinating. I have an aging father. He now has Alzheimer's. He worked, he was on the very right side. He worked for Trent Lott. He worked, he's in the Reagan administration and he was always fighting against tax cuts and less social.

Nick Bruckman: I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

Christian: services, et cetera, et cetera. Now he's aging, he's in his 80s, and he is just clinging on to his Social Security and his Medicare because he has very little money. And it is interesting how when your situations change, whether you are sick or you have an issue that you've been campaigning against and all of a sudden you're in that boat, it makes you see things very differently. And I think that's kind of what we experience when we watch your film. We're sitting in Adi's chair for. a lot of the movie and rolling around with him wherever he goes. And there's just no way you can't put yourself in his shoes, you know, for an hour and a half. So anyway, thank you for that.

Nick Bruckman: Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that. I'm sorry to hear about that. And yeah, a similar personal story and that my father passed away in 2015 from stroke and was in similar sort of health challenges in terms of a tracheostomy and all that, that Adi has in his final years. And he was a very staunch Republican, believe it or not. And... you know, again, not to get too political here, but he, you know, it was the VA system and having his veteran and having that care was what, you know, made it possible for us the last couple of years to care for him. So, you know, ironically, that experience, you know, made me and my relationship to him kind of push me further and have that personal, and I do think there's something everybody in the film can relate to ALS is obviously very extreme and to get it at such a young age is just undeniably tragic. And it's not, you know, it doesn't matter, you know, universal healthcare or not, that's a terrible thing to happen to somebody you know. But I think everybody sees something. And there's so many people have come up to me and said this person, you know, I know my uncle had ALS or this so-and-so has Parkinson's stroke like my father had. And... there's, it's very, Audi's story is very specific and yet somehow very universal. And that's what I think, again, to zoom out, I'm always looking for in documentary film subjects.

Christian: That's what makes a great documentary film for sure. So let's talk about the filmmaking. How long did you work on this film? I want to know all those things. How did it start? How long did you work on it? What was the budget? What were the challenging things? What were the big wins? Tell me about the actual making of the film.

Nick Bruckman: Yeah, so I can rewind very far into how I got connected to Adi, which kind of takes us into a little bit of my career because I didn't meet him as a sort of feature film subject. I, early in my, so it's a good segue to talk about people's TV and, you know, you brought up, you know, how these things actually get made. So I'm happy to share my, yeah.

Christian: weave it all in there. I wanted to know about all those things, so go.

Nick Bruckman: Yeah, so I have made a couple of films before this, but coming from kind of an advocacy background and storytelling background, I decided pretty early in my career to bring that skillset of filmmaking and character-driven storytelling to brands, to businesses, to nonprofits. And I started a company to do that. when I was relatively young, which has been around for 10, 12 years now called People's Television. And it started with really just me and a business partner. And we've grown it over the time to two offices, one in New York and DC. And I've really focused on that more proactively than I have on feature filmmaking in part because I really believe that organizations that are doing important work in the world need great storytelling. And that became increasingly true, especially in the age of social and digital media, where what the stories brands wanted to tell kind of migrated outside of the 30 second TV ad into opportunities to talk about the people they're helping in their nonprofit communities that they serve or the environmental sustainability initiatives that companies have or diversity initiatives. And so we built a kind of niche doing stories about impact for for companies as well as for political campaigns and causes. And in 2018, I got a call from Liz Jaff, who is a political consultant that people who see the film will recognize. And she said, she, crazy story, I just met this guy on a plane, you might've seen it on the news. Him and I are starting a healthcare advocacy group, and we need a short launch video for our YouTube.

Christian: She was great.

Nick Bruckman: Could People's TV take on this job? You know, we don't have a big budget, but it's important work and I think you'll like this guy a lot. And I was connected to Liz through other people in the political world and... I flew out to Santa Barbara to meet him for what I thought would be a kind of short promotional film for the Be a Hero campaign. I sort of imagined it to be like a, you know, oh, it's sad, he's got ALS, he wants healthcare, you know. And the very first meeting I ever had with Adi is actually in the film. He's opening credits, he's taking his shirt off and he's joking about his abs and with his wife. And it was just this incredible moment. I did the whole interview with him about his story and was just weeping and laughing the whole time, again, for a two minute video. And at the very end of that interview, I said, Adi, let's do this via hero launch video and then let's make a movie. And I'm like, you know, normally it takes a couple of months and we'd be talking a lot. But when I met him was 2018, he'd already had ALS for two years and he only had about six months from that moment. of speaking. And we didn't know at that time if he would still be able to communicate after, which thankfully he did for another five years. So this is all to say that we accelerated that process. He agreed right away. And there was a lot more to that dynamic. He's talked a lot in interviews about that he did have some apprehension, but wanted a... you know, record for his family. Again, it's like heavier for me right now to talk about a lot of this than it was just a few weeks ago. So, yeah.

Christian: Take your time. I think maybe I'm wondering if you start off thinking, oh my goodness, we don't have a lot of time. We only gave them a couple of years or three years. And then all of a sudden you get into this, wow, we've made it four. And so maybe you think there's longer, and then all of a sudden they're gone. And I had this situation, I did a World War II film focused on World War II veterans. their issues and things. And I had my favorite veteran that was gonna be at the opening of my film. And two days before that, he passed away. And it was just devastating, you know? So I understand trying to go and talk about that. So yeah, take your time. I do think.

Nick Bruckman: Oh wow, I'm so sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'd love to see that film. I will say, and I'm jumping ahead in time now, but in 2021, after I promised to do him justice, I got Audie to the red carpet at our premiere in Hollywood, packed house, standing ovation. And, you know, it was one of the best moments of my professional and personal life. Yeah, you know, I was watching him the whole time to see what he thinks. And...

Christian: UGH I'm so glad he got to see that. That's beautiful.

Nick Bruckman: He is a very critical guy, as you can see in the film. He, you know, provocative and somebody that pushes everybody to do their best work. And, you know, he gave me a kind of knowing eyebrow raise, which meant that it was good and that meant the world to me. And, you know, even now in so many of the tributes, people have talked about the film as how they discovered him and all of that. So, you know, in some respects, there's a happy ending. And I'm sorry you didn't get that with that one.

Christian: Sounds good.

Nick Bruckman: subject on your project and hopefully, you know, their family and others who you honored appreciated it. But quickly from there, we kind of went in on spec and just started filming. I used resources from People's TV. One of the reasons that I do this brand work is it gives us some flexibility to explore stories that are interesting because we have paying clients and are not entirely dependent on, you know, let's say grants, which is another way or investors. We did get some of those including Bradley Whitford and the Duplass brothers who both supported the film and became executive producers. I met Bradley through Adi. Adi and him had met at a protest and had fallen in love with him and I'd become very close to Bradley over the last, especially over the last week, but over the last few years. And Bradley said, well, I don't know anything about documentaries, I'm an actor, but talk to my friend. Talk to my friends Mark and Jay, who are filmmakers that I've known and respected forever and I'm very grateful to be connected to them through this whole journey. And they all came in as executive producers. We also did end up getting grants from a number of different places, but not at first. There was really nobody at the beginning who kind of understood what it was because Audie wasn't really famous at the time. He was just this kind of sick dad who had this viral moment. I think later on everybody got it, but we got a lot of rejection from a lot of funders, a lot of people who just said, I think they thought it sounded too sad. Yeah. Yeah, no, fair enough, fair enough. It was and it is kind of sad. And that scared people who maybe wanted something more, you know, commercial or big or bright, but ultimately.

Christian: Well, it was kind of sad. But let me just say one thing, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I don't want to give people the wrong idea. There were many humorous moments. There were many humorous moments and it was heart winning and there were wins there in his journey. So I don't want to make people think you're gonna watch this and feel so sad all the time.

Nick Bruckman: No, I mean, I really wanted to make something that's very life-affirming, and even though I'm sad this week, I mean, he, my outlook on life and sense of purpose is greatly increased, and I think if you watch this movie, you will feel better. And I wanted that in the first place, because knowing him made me feel better. And it's hard to explain that about a movie about a terminal illness. And yeah, so. That journey was very winding. I had a great team of people on the film, my producer. Well, the really key person was my co-writer and producer, Amanda Roddy, who was really on the journey with me from the beginning. We had an incredible editor named Kent Bassett, who had actually made a movie, his own movie, about chronic pain. And so was really familiar with healthcare storytelling and is just an incredible editor. So much of the...

Christian: How big was your team?

Nick Bruckman: I think humor really came to life. I mean, a lot of that is, yeah, Audi's funny, but it was just like a narrative film. It happens in the camera work. It happens in post. We had several cinematographers on the project. One, I did shoot as well. Yeah, mostly, I'm not a very good shooter and we could have a whole other conversation about...

Christian: Did you shoot as well?

Nick Bruckman: together good crews. I'm a terrible DP, but I was very close to Adi and I actually lived at Adi's house for pretty long stretches at a time in his kind of garage extra bedroom so that I could be close to the family and film dinnertime scenes without a crew and without anybody there, which I knew would help increase the intimacy. But I'm based in New York and I had a LA-based cinematographer.

Christian: did.

Nick Bruckman: A lot of the filming was in DC, so I had a DC-based cinematographer, writer Hask. So there was, you know, and tried to kind of try to create as much visual cohesion as we could with all those different voices. Of course, a lot of the best footage in the film is shot on cell phones, including what Liz shot on the plane, which is really the best piece of footage in the whole movie. And I really am, you know, to segue into that very tool, agnostic, and I think that phones are great.

Christian: Yeah, I could see. Yeah.

Nick Bruckman: devices, you need good sound, but I'm not a big gear head. And I think really documentary film is all editing. And that's why I try to help. Yeah.

Christian: It is, it's all storytelling in the end. And sometimes, you know, like you said, like Liz's video is not great video quality, but it kind of doesn't matter. You're in the subject matter and it's, you know, intense. So yeah, you're completely right. Can I ask you how much the budget was?

Nick Bruckman: I would feel more comfortable talking to viewers like offline about it because I do help viewers on an individual basis with this. And I'm like, if there's producers or filmmakers in the audience that wanna reach out to me and have a project and get feedback, I'm always down to do that. I'm on Instagram at Nicholas Breckman and you can post my socials. The one reason I don't share it publicly is that we still are working. I'll just tell you why people don't share them publicly, even though I... all for transparency in the industry, is that when negotiating with distributors or other people who might acquire the film, you don't wanna undersell yourself or oversell yourself. So I don't like this aspect of being.

Christian: That actually is a great, you know, we're here to learn. The filmmakers that listen want to learn. So I think that's a great explanation.

Nick Bruckman: Yeah, that's just why I can't publish it. But on an individual level, you know, you or any of your audience wants to reach out to me. I actually am very much for producing transparency but I can't publish the budget on a film that's still in the sales process.

Christian: I totally understand. Now I did read somewhere it was on Hulu.

Nick Bruckman: Yes, yes, the film's on Hulu now, so that's where folks should check it out.

Christian: Okay, but do you have other things in the future for this film? You hope.

Nick Bruckman: Yes, so generally speaking, it might be worthwhile to talk about the whole distribution of the film in general, but that was also a very complicated journey. I was talking about the editing last, the film took a year to edit, which was probably where most of our expenses came from, just that duration of time. And I think that's how long it takes to edit a really strong character-driven documentary.

Christian: Please.

Nick Bruckman: The film premiered at South by Southwest in 2021 and where you mentioned it got some awards, which was great. But it, yes. Yes, it was cool. It was also virtual that year because of the pandemic, which was not ideal, but it was, really? Oh gosh. Yeah, so we ended up piecing the different rights together. We could have a whole hour long conversation about distribution, but.

Christian: It kept the audience of word, which is pretty amazing. Oh wow. Mine released during the pandemic too, and it was a nightmare, it was horrible. Yeah, I feel your pain. I feel your pain. I know.

Nick Bruckman: POV ended up taking the broadcast rights, which is a great PBS documentary strand. I was very proud to be a part of it. And then Greenwich Entertainment did a theatrical run and they ultimately ended up selling it to Hulu as a streaming partner. So it is done and the film is out in the world and viewers can check it out on all those platforms as well as VOD. But the... we are trying to renew and redo some deals. So the rights come up every couple of years. But the film was made for six figures. I can share that. And that's kind of what I think most people are making indie documentaries for. Most larger, bigger celebrity rock and roll things are often in the low seven figures. This was on that indie side of the scale.

Christian: we are running out of time, which I am heartbroken to say, because there are so many questions that I have to ask you. We haven't even

Nick Bruckman: We can, we can, I'm sorry to cut you off. If you want to go till, you know, 12, 10 or 15, that's fine.

Christian: Okay, beautiful, because we haven't even talked about Minted. Okay, we haven't talked about really people's TV or your personal journey. So I kind of marked this for us to edit. So what I'd like to do now is let's talk about Minted. Let's talk about, well, either your filmmaking journey or Minted, what do you wanna go with next?

Nick Bruckman: Oh, we should talk about, um, yeah, talk about minted, um, which is really, yeah.

Christian: Okay, so let me ask. Okay, so we're running out of time. There's so many other things that I wanna ask you. I've got to talk about Minted because I did watch both of these films in the same day. And I watched Minted first. And I was just like, oh my gosh, it opened up a whole new world that I never knew was out there. I mean, I heard the terms NFT thrown around. I actually am on Robinhood and I have some Bitcoin. So I know. cryptocurrency is out there, but I don't know what any of that means. And I don't know what the impact is or was. And I remember there was a big crash, but I mean, your film was brilliant and how it told the story. Um, and that's what for me was the most remarkable is how you told the story. Uh, because you really did show all the highs of the NFT world. And then all of a sudden the crashes and then there's still the whole. And so it is the journey of that. And you see it from so many different points of view. So talk about how that started, talk about how you decided to tell the story, anything you wanna let us know, I'd love to hear it.

Nick Bruckman: Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting that you watch that first because most people who've seen my work obviously saw Not Going Quietly first, which came out first, and they really couldn't be more different in some ways. So I was really interested in NFTs because actually before I got so political and activist-y and social change-y, I...

Christian: No.

Nick Bruckman: was interested in digital art. And I was, my very first films that I made as a kid were kind of abstract digital video. I studied video art in college. I went to an art school and only from there, and to be about, it connects to my personal journey. So I'm trying to thread both together here in the interest of time.

Christian: Yep, and so real quick though, I think we need to explain what an NFT is because my audience may not. So do a little bit of term explaining in the middle of this.

Nick Bruckman: Yes, good. So hopefully the film explains this, but NFT stands for non-fungible token. And it is a term that exploded in the media in 2021. And it has become a very divisive, controversial, ridiculed, and complex topic that is adjacent to the whole topic of cryptocurrencies, including Bitcoin and Ethereum. And it's a... virtually impossible thing to explain because it all sits on a very complex technology called the blockchain. And it's something that has been, I think, confounding to people for many years since the advent of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies nearly 15 years ago. But I think most people have come to accept the fact that Bitcoin and things like it are probably here to stay, whether we sort of like them or not. that this is a sort of digital store of value that people are able to transact in some way. And I try not to in the film take a particular value judgment. This concept stirs up a lot of strong emotional reactions in people. Yeah.

Christian: You argued both sides. That was what was interesting to me. You argued both sides.

Nick Bruckman: Yes, exactly. And I think both sides are really interesting because I think it raises a lot of interesting conversations about the role of technology in society, about how technology has the power to... The similarity between this and not going quietly is that many people believe that these technologies have the power to, quote unquote, decentralize power away from powerful institutions. So big cryptocurrency evangelists... believe that Bitcoin has the power to give power to the people and take it away from the big banks or from the Federal Reserve and central government. And what people believe about NFTs is that we can take that same concept of digital currency and apply it to art and other things like art. And you have to watch the movie, hopefully, to wrap your mind around it. But I'm... Yeah.

Christian: You do. You have to have the visuals. I mean, that's what I loved about what you did is you were telling, you know, it all starts with art and you were telling the story in an art way. It was just brilliant. And again, we're running short on time. I would love to talk a lot more about that, but I really am interested. Oh, where can you watch minted by the way? Let's say that real fast.

Nick Bruckman: So Minted is not out yet. It premiered this year at the 2023 Tribeca Film Festival. And we are working on distribution now and hopefully we will have some exciting news about that very soon. I lost you again.

Christian: I hope so. It needs to be out there. It was fantastic. I loved it. Okay. So I do want to learn about you. So I did read you were born in London, which I find fascinating. And then you did go to SUNY Purchase. I went to SUNY Stony Brook. So we have that in common. And you know, from there, I think that, you know, you did a lot more study clearly to get where you are. So tell me about your background. You there? Can you hear me now? Hello? Are you, can you hear me?

Nick Bruckman: Oh, okay, interesting. It says 99% uploading. Can you hear me? I see your text, but I don't see you.

Christian: Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear it. Okay, let's stop and start.

Nick Bruckman: You are gone and it says 99% uploading. So I'm waiting for that to finish, then we'll refresh.

Christian: Okay, so tell me again where we can see minted.

Nick Bruckman: So Minted just premiered this summer at the 2023 Tribeca Film Festival, and it is not out yet. It's on the festival circuit. I just showed it in DC at the Double Exposure Film Festival, which is a really great investigative journalism festival. I recommend all your viewers check out in Washington, DC. But we do have some news about distribution on the horizon, maybe even by the time this comes out. So we hope it will be on a streaming service very soon.

Christian: That's super exciting. Okay, we still are getting really close to time. I wanna learn more about you. You are a fascinating individual. You've accomplished amazing things in your 39 years. So tell me, give me the two minutes summary of your life story and your filmmaking journey. How did you get here?

Nick Bruckman: Yeah, so I thank you for those kind words. I still feel like I'm striving at the climate and trying to break into the industry even now. My family's from New York City. I'm of mixed heritage. My mother's family's from India. My father's family is American. And I... There are many artists in my family, mostly in classical music. My mother was an opera singer. Her father was a sitar player. My brother is a classical pianist in Europe. And I think I wanted to get into the arts, but as far away from music as I could, because I was always going to be overshadowed by them. And I just was picking up, my mom bought me my first video camera, I think at seven years old. And I... made all kinds of short films. I wanted to be a music video director. I wanted to be a video artist, as I mentioned, which got me interested in some of the artists that are in Minted. And then around when I was 17 years old, living in upper Manhattan was when 9-11 happened. We talked a lot about lack of understanding and the xenophobia and othering, I think was the word used, which I agree with. And I went down to the World Trade Center site on that day. I roller bladed down there with my video camera. And the next couple of years for the country was very complicated and I was active in some anti-war protests. And I really felt that the tool of the camera, especially as differentiated from mainstream news and the medium of documentary, whether short or long form, but of this kind of character storytelling was basically the best way that I could raise my voice as an artist. And again, not everything I do is all about peace and love, but I made a film about immigration that has a very similar thematic issues, also has a disability connection in it. One thing worth mentioning is that my grandfather, who was from India, was blind and opened the lighthouse for the blind in India. And so it was very active, this is in the 1950s, when there were no rights for the blind. And my aunt and uncle are both people with disabilities. My aunt has cerebral palsy and was very active in the movement to get the Americans with Disabilities Act passed in 1990.

Christian: home.

Nick Bruckman: I don't identify as a person with a disability, but many of my films have touched on this. And there's just a lot of social advocacy in my family. So I think I was lucky with that, to be exposed to that at an early age. And I went to state school, to the State University of New York at Purchase. This is not an elite film school, I should mention. I did not get into NYU, and where most of the really successful documentary filmmakers went or to... USC or Columbia, so I still consider myself kind of like outsider public school kid. And I worked at another film production company for several years before starting my own to kind of learn the ropes. And I really believe that it's really important for people who want to direct and whether it's narrative films and they admire Quentin Tarantino or Michael Moore to really think about sustainability and... the economics of achieving that goal. And for me, that was doing this commercial and client work. And at first, when I started out, I was shooting and editing myself for anybody that would hire me to do stuff. And over time, I built a team and a specialization. And I think really my craft is really producing and understanding. And now I'm more of a CEO role. I have 10 employees. between Washington, D.C. and our New York office. But for me, I was a very good editor. I was never a good camera person, as I mentioned earlier. And I really advise young filmmakers, get really great at a craft that is adjacent or in the industry. You know, George Lucas was very famous for knowing how to do the makeup for the actors, knowing how to do the miniature modeling, knowing how to do the sound. And I really think that people who want to direct and storytell should actually understand the nuances of it and more specifically, get really good at one thing, color correcting, gaffing and lighting. And that way you can have a job in the industry where you're exposed to other people and you make those connections, which brings me to my number two piece of advice for anybody breaking in young, old or otherwise, which is to find your tribe. That documentary filmmaking is a very...

Christian: in the next video.

Nick Bruckman: collective team sport. That's my favorite thing about it. I think one of the reasons I didn't wanna be a, my brother was, you know, my brother's a concert pianist and it's amazing, but it's very like, you know, rigorous and sometimes solitary endeavor. So is filmmaking, but this movie, Not Going Quietly Minted was with, you know, an amazing squad of people that I hope to continue.

Christian: Mine too.

Nick Bruckman: making films with a lot of the camera people that shot Not Going Quietly, also shot Minted, and you develop a language and a relationship, and there's no way you can be great at every element of it. So find a skill that's marketable. That way you don't have to work, you know, in retail or outside the industry because you wanna be around it. You're not gonna get, unless you're rich, nobody's gonna give you the keys to direct a film right away.

Christian: Lots of shortcuts.

Nick Bruckman: And if you find a great story and wanna pursue it, you're gonna have to use your own money. So how are you gonna get that? While having time, and so again, even this is not easy what I'm saying, but networking is great and I really try to pay it forward in terms of being really open to consultation and outreach. I am going to speak on a panel at DocNYC about film ethics. Last week at Double Exposure, I met with young. volunteers, I went to Haiti to do a filmmaking workshop, and this is all to say that if your viewers wanna reach out to me about their projects, about what they're working on, I'm really, DM's always open on social media. I really love helping young filmmakers, you know, however I can, because it's so hard, and we need more great stories told.

Christian: That is just beautiful. I mean, you are an amazing person. I just am so thankful that you've spent this time with us. I have learned a lot and I just wanna cheer you on. I'm just such a fan of your work and who you are as a person now that I've gotten to speak with you. I know our listeners will love you as well and be so grateful that you are so humble and willing to pay it forward. I think that is hard to find in our industry, but it is so needed, you know, it really is so needed. Not necessarily for... fantastic stellar work necessarily, but I think our industry is hungry for others that care and that really want to tell good stories in a humane way where we're not killing ourselves in order to, you know, to make a living or to get the film made. So anyway, we're gonna wrap up here. We're not even gonna have time for docuVu deja vu today. You'll have to check in next week, but if you are a Patreon listener, we're gonna record a short little segment here. We're going to ask him some fun questions about what it's like to work with Bradley Whitford and the Duplass Brothers. So stick around or join Patreon so you can come and hear that little extra. So Nick, thank you so much for being here. I really, I would love to have you back. There's just so much we did not touch on.

Nick Bruckman: Absolutely. Thank you. It's great. It's an honor to be here and I really appreciate what you're doing with your platform.

Christian: Thank you so much. Yeah. All right, everybody, we're gonna wrap it up here. Thank you so much for listening to Documentary First, where we believe everyone has a story to tell and you can be the one to tell it. Bye, everybody.