What If You're Not Actually Failing?
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Documentary First: The Deep Dive · built from Episode 272 with Quinnolyn Benson-Yates · 17 minutes · March 5, 2026
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What did a bankrupt video store owner learn about failure by running 130 miles through Death Valley?
Bill Bradley built a video rental empire from scratch, starting with 15 credit cards. When Netflix arrived the industry collapsed, and Bill kept opening new stores even as profits fell, because he believed so deeply in what he had built. He went bankrupt and went through a divorce. Then he ran a 50-mile ultramarathon on a whim and kept going: 130-mile races through Death Valley, Arctic ultras, 22,000-foot mountains. Along the way he picked up two mantras. One was "Show up and suffer." The other was "Courage is a muscle."
In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 272 with Quinnolyn Benson-Yates, director of Epic Bill, Christian Taylor unpacks that second line. She starts with a tennis book that taught her how to lose a point without losing the match, then turns to what happens inside a muscle after hard exercise, and to what Quinn calls failing sustainably.
From there Christian gathers people who failed often and kept going: Thomas Edison, Michael Jordan and the 1980 U.S. Olympic hockey team, which lost 10 to 3 to the Soviets 13 days before beating them. She brings in Marcus Aurelius, the letter of James and Romans 8:28. Then she is honest about why the subject matters to her right now: she is telling this story, she says, "from the valley."
In this Deep Dive, Christian explores
- What Bill Bradley lost when Netflix arrived, and how extreme endurance races became his way back
- What Vic Braden's Mental Tennis taught Christian about losing a point without losing the match
- Why muscles grow during recovery, not during the stress, and what that says about building courage
- What Quinnolyn Benson-Yates means by failing sustainably, and why mentors and community are part of it
- How Thomas Edison and Michael Jordan each described their failures
- Why the 1980 Miracle on Ice doesn't happen without the 10 to 3 loss at Madison Square Garden
- What Marcus Aurelius, the letter of James and Romans 8:28 say about trials
- Christian's own confession: the overhead, the Patreon, the costs of her film, and the days she wonders whether to quit
Questions and answers
What does "courage is a muscle" mean?
It is one of the mantras of Bill Bradley, the endurance athlete at the center of the documentary Epic Bill. Christian Taylor explains it this way: "You can't build courage by avoiding hard things. You build it by doing hard things over and over, even when you fail. Especially when you fail." She compares it to exercise, where muscles break down under stress and come back stronger during recovery.
What does "show up and suffer" mean?
It is Bill Bradley's other mantra. Christian Taylor says it "means exactly what it sounds like. Do the work. It won't be easy. Nobody said it would be, but you show up anyway." For Bill, who lost his video rental business and went bankrupt, it meant entering extreme endurance races and doing the hard thing anyway.
What is failing sustainably?
Failing sustainably is director Quinnolyn Benson-Yates's name for the idea. Christian Taylor connects it to muscle growth: growth happens during recovery, and if you overdo it, you get injured instead of stronger. In practice, she says, it could look like having mentors who believe in you and a good community. You push yourself, but not past the point of destruction.
How did the 10 to 3 loss lead to the Miracle on Ice?
Thirteen days before the 1980 Olympic game, the Soviet team beat the young U.S. team 10 to 3 in an exhibition at Madison Square Garden, and coach Herb Brooks said, "Our chances for a gold medal are very slim, if none at all." The Americans kept playing, beat the Soviets 4 to 3 on February 22, 1980, then beat Finland for the gold. Christian Taylor's point: the miracle doesn't happen without the loss.
What did Thomas Edison and Michael Jordan say about failure?
Christian Taylor quotes Edison as saying, "I didn't fail. I found out 2,000 ways how not to make a light bulb." He saw his attempts as data. She also quotes Jordan's Nike commercial: "I've missed more than 9,000 shots in my career," a list of losses that ends with him saying he succeeds because of his failures. She credits National Treasure for the Edison story.
Chapters
- 0:00 Introduction: What does "courage is a muscle" mean?
- 1:00 Vic Braden's mental tennis lesson: You don't have to win every point
- 2:25 Bill Bradley: How Netflix bankrupted his video rental empire
- 3:41 "Show up and suffer": Mantras for reinvention
- 4:18 The science: Why stress plus recovery equals strength
- 5:15 "Failing sustainably": Mentors, community, rest
- 6:28 Edison: 2,000 ways not to make a light bulb
- 7:11 Michael Jordan: "I've failed over and over"
- 8:02 Miracle on Ice: How the 10-3 loss set up the upset
- 10:44 Marcus Aurelius: The obstacle is the way
- 11:35 James 1:2-4: What the Bible says about trials
- 12:31 Christian's confession: Feeling like a failure
- 14:36 Closing: How you respond to failure is everything
About the topic
Christian Taylor tells this story, she says, from the valley rather than a mountaintop. Her business sometimes needs her to subsidize it to pay the overhead, her Patreon has 25 paying members, and her film still carries licensing, legal and marketing costs years after its release. Looking at it through Bill's lens, she says she hasn't been failing. She has been finding ways that didn't work, getting data like Edison and working the muscle like Bill.
She closes with a line from her interview with Quinn: "Valuing the courage to try again is a radical concept. It's something that keeps you walking forward in life." Her own conclusion is that failure isn't the most important thing. How we respond to it is.
About Quinnolyn Benson-Yates and Epic Bill
Quinnolyn Benson-Yates spent seven years making Epic Bill, her first feature documentary, about Bill Bradley, who lost his video rental empire, his marriage and his identity as a successful businessman and rebuilt himself one grueling race at a time. Christian's full conversation with Quinn about the film, its distribution and the seven-year process is Documentary First Episode 272.
The source episode
Epic Bill: From Video Store Millionaire to Endurance Athlete, Documentary First Episode 272 with Quinnolyn Benson-Yates, director of Epic Bill. Read the episode page: Epic Bill: From Video Store Millionaire to Endurance Athlete.
About Documentary First
Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across more than 290 episodes. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week. Follow the show · About the podcast · Support the show on Patreon
Resources mentioned
- Epic Bill, directed by Quinnolyn Benson-Yates
- Quinnolyn Benson-Yates
- Vic Braden's Mental Tennis by Vic Braden
- The Obstacle Is the Way by Ryan Holiday
- Miracle: The Boys of '80 (Netflix)
- Documentary First Episode 272 with Quinnolyn Benson-Yates
Full transcript
Read the full transcript of What If You're Not Actually Failing?
Christian Taylor 00:00
This is Documentary First: The Deep Dive, where I take an insight from a recent main Documentary First podcast conversation, plumb its depths, and see what gold we can bring to the surface. I'm Christian Taylor. Let's dive in. So today, I want to talk about failure, not the inspirational poster versions, the real thing, the kind that makes you question whether you should keep going. Now, this comes from my conversation recently with filmmaker Quinnolyn Benson-Yates about her documentary Epic Bill. Quinn spent seven years making a film about an endurance athlete, Bill, who lost everything, his video rental empire, his marriage, his identity as a successful businessman, and he rebuilt himself one grueling race at a time. And something he said made me stop and think. He said, "Courage is a muscle."
Christian Taylor 00:52
Now, I want to unpack that because I think it might be the most important thing we can understand as filmmakers, as creators, just as simple human beings trying to do something that matters. Let me start with a story from my own life. Years ago, when I was playing competitive tennis, I read a really great book called Vic Braden's Mental Tennis, and it completely changed my game. Not because it taught me a better backhand, because it certainly did not, but it taught me how to think about losing. Now, I hated losing. I mean, I really, really hated it. When I missed a shot, I would crucify myself. I would call myself terrible names. I would spiral into this pit of self-loathing that made me miss the next point, and it made it even harder to win. And Vic said something so simple it almost sounded really stupid. I mean, if you sat a second you would it would seem really obvious. You could nearly lose half the points in a match and still win. You just needed to win one more point than your opponent. That's it. You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to win every single point. You just have to win enough. And it unlocked something in me. The fear of failure started to release its grip. I stopped putting so much pressure on myself to be perfect and started playing better. Not because I was hitting differently, but because I was thinking differently.
Christian Taylor 02:16
I didn't know it at the time, but that was my first lesson in an idea that Bill talked about, courage being a muscle. I was learning to keep going after a lost point, not to let one failure define a whole match. So, let's talk about Bill. Bill Bradley, the subject of Quinn's documentary Epic Bill, was a multi-millionaire. He built a video rental empire from scratch, started with 15 credit cards and sheer determination. He was a community leader. He had everything. And then Netflix happened. The industry didn't just decline, it totally collapsed. Bill kept opening new stores though even as profits fell because he believed so deeply in what he had built and he went bankrupt. He went through a divorce. His identity as a successful businessman was erased in a very public, very painful way. But here's what gets really interesting.
Christian Taylor 03:15
Bill then didn't try to rebuild himself as a businessman. Instead, he started running. Literally, he ran a 50-mile ultramarathon on a whim. And something clicked. He started doing extreme endurance events, 130-mile races through Death Valley, Arctic ultras in -50° weather, climbs up 22,000-foot mountains. He developed two phrases that became his mantras. One was, "Show up and suffer." And the other, as I referenced earlier, was courage is a muscle. Now, show up and suffer means exactly what it sounds like. Do the work. It won't be easy. Nobody said it would be, but you show up anyway. And courage is a muscle means you have to keep working it. You can't build courage by avoiding hard things. You build it by doing hard things over and over, even when you fail.
Christian Taylor 04:12
Especially when you fail. Now, here's what's fascinating. As I started thinking about it, I realized Bill's metaphor is actually backed by science. I mean, you may have heard this before. When you lift weights or do any sort of intense exercise, you create microscopic tears in your muscle fibers. Your body responds by sending nutrients and blood to repair that damage. And when the repair is complete, the muscle comes back stronger than before. As one doctor put it, you have to break the muscle down to build it back up stronger. But here's the key.
Christian Taylor 04:49
The growth doesn't happen during the stress. It happens during the recovery after the stress. You need to rest. You need nutrition. You need the time. And what happens if you overdo it? You tear your muscles faster. And then your body can't repair them. You don't get stronger, then you get injured. So Quinn calls this concept failing sustainably. What might that look like? Well, it could look like having mentors who believe in you, a good community.
Christian Taylor 05:27
You do need to push yourself, yeah, but not past the point of destruction. While courage works the same way, each difficult thing we face tears at us a little. But if we allow recovery, rest, reflection faith we can come back stronger. The muscle of courage does grow, but only if we keep using it. Now, I love examples. I love metaphors. So I was thinking about, you know, some that meant a lot to me. And I'm going to give you a couple of people who like understood this better than I. Now, I wish I could take credit for this. I wish I could say that I was a deep well of American historical knowledge. But, you know, I got to be real. I have to give credit for this next little gem I'm going to tell you about to the writers of my one of my favorite movies, National Treasure, for this little piece of knowledge and Nicolas Cage for delivering the line so masterfully. The line goes like this.
Christian Taylor 06:31
You know, Thomas Edison tried and failed nearly 2,000 times to develop the carbonized cotton thread filament for the incandescent light bulb. And when asked about it, he said, "I didn't fail. I found out 2,000 ways how not to make a light bulb." But he only needed to find one to make it work. He didn't see those attempts as failures, obviously. He saw them as data. Each one taught him something. Each one got him closer to the answer. He later said, "Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up."
Christian Taylor 07:15
Then there's Michael Jordan, a arguably one of the greatest basketball players of all time. And there was this famous Nike commercial in which he said, "I've missed more than 9,000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times I've been trusted to take the game-winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over in my life. And that's why I succeed. Not in spite of my failures, but because of my failures." Now that's reframing.
Christian Taylor 07:53
Jordan also said something else I love. I can accept failure. Everyone fails at something. But I can't accept not trying. Word. I want to tell you another story. This one is appropriate because right now we're right in the middle of the Winter Olympics. Okay, so last week I watched the Netflix documentary Miracle: The Boys of '80. And if you haven't seen it, highly recommend it. It's about the 1980 US Olympic hockey team. And it's the perfect illustration of everything that we're talking about right now. So, the Soviet hockey team had won four consecutive Olympic gold medals. Now, they hadn't lost an Olympic game in 12 years. I mean, these guys were huge. They were monsters. They were incredible. The goal differential that they had since 1960 was 175 to 44. They were professionals in everything but name. The government literally paid them to do nothing but train. The US team, they were college kids. Average age of them was 21, the youngest team in US history, US Olympic history. 13 days before they would face each other in the US Olympics, the Soviets crushed the Americans 10 to 3 at an exhibition game in Madison Square Garden. 10 to 3.
Christian Taylor 09:10
After that loss, coach Herb Brooks said, "Our chances for a gold medal are very slim, if none at all." Now, that could have been the end of the story. a bunch of college kids, college kids got, you know, a reality check about how far they were from the best team in the world and nobody would have blamed them for it. I mean, goodness, they probably would have understood if they didn't win any medals at all. But they didn't quit. They scrapped through the opening round, including, you know, needing a last second goal just to tie the Swedish. And then they kept showing up. And it wasn't easy.
Christian Taylor 09:52
They got injured a lot, but they kept playing. They kept suffering. And on February 22nd, 1980, and I was watching it in real life, yes, I am that old. They beat the Soviets four to three. Two days later, they beat Finland to win the gold. I mean, it was crazy. It was like that game was the gold medal round, but they still had one more. And Al Michaels asked the question, you know, that gives me chills. Do you believe in miracles? Yes, if you haven't watched it, you totally should. Sports Illustrated named it the top sports moment of the 20th century.
Christian Taylor 10:29
But here's what I want you to remember. It doesn't happen without the 10-3 loss. That failure was part of the story. That crushing defeat was the setup for the miracle. And this isn't just sports psychology. This is ancient wisdom, actually. And I can prove it. Marcus Aurelius, the stoic philosopher, one of my favorite, and he was a Roman emperor as well. He wrote the impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way. Now, Ryan Holiday turned this into a book called The Obstacle is the Way. If you haven't read it, totally suggest it. The idea is simple. Every obstacle, every failure, every setback is an opportunity. Not in some toxic positivity way, but practically it's a chance to practice patience or resilience or creativity. It's data.
Christian Taylor 11:21
Like Edison said, the Stoics practice what they called negative visualization, imagining what could go wrong. Not to be pessimistic, but so that they wouldn't be surprised by failure. So they could respond to it instead of being destroyed by it. And incidentally, James, a contemporary of the Stoics and one of the writers of the book of James in the Bible, said something similar. Consider it pure joy when you face trials of many kinds. Because you know, the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
Christian Taylor 11:58
Romans 8:28, Paul wrote this book. He said, "All things work together for good." Now, not all things are good, but all things, even the failures, even the crushing defeats can be woven into something good. The Stoics and Scripture and Epic Bill, they, you know, all agree trials aren't obstacles to becoming who we're meant to be. They're part of the process of becoming who we're meant to be.
Christian Taylor 12:36
Which brings me to my confession. I got to be honest with you. I'm not telling you this from some mountaintop of success. I'm actually telling you this from the valley. I'm speaking to myself almost as much, if not more, than to you. I've been questioning my own identity as a filmmaker, as a podcast host, as a business owner, my own success. I've been feeling like a failure myself in ways that are hard to admit out loud. My business requires me to subsidize it at times just to pay the overhead. My Patreon only has 25 paying members, most at the lowest levels. My film, which I poured years of my life into, still has licensing fees and lawyer fees and marketing fees that I have to pay and requires me to promote it constantly for years after its release.
Christian Taylor 13:34
Some days, I wonder if any of this is working. And some days, a lot of days, I wonder if I should just quit. And yet, when I look at it through a different lens, like the ones I've been talking about, see what I did there? I start to see something else. I haven't been failing. I've been finding ways that didn't work. Each step has been getting me closer to what I need to be doing. I'm getting data like Edison. I'm working the muscle like Bill. I'm in my own 10-3 loss and I don't know yet what miracle might be on the other side.
Christian Taylor 14:13
Quinn said something in our interview that stuck with me. She said, "Valuing the courage to try again is a radical concept. It's something that keeps you walking forward in life." So that's what I'm choosing. To keep walking forward, to keep showing up, to keep suffering in the productive sense, doing the hard work even when it's not paying off yet. Because here's what I realize. Failure really isn't the most important thing. How we respond to the failure is.
Christian Taylor 14:49
So, if you're in it right now, if you're questioning whether to keep going, whether you have what it takes, whether any of this is going to work, I want you to hear this with me. Courage is a muscle. You've got to work it to grow it. Show up and suffer. Do the hard thing anyway. Do the work. And whatever obstacle is in front of you is your way. It's the way. What stands in front of you, what stands on your path might actually be what you need. And failure, it might just be the gift you didn't know you were being given.
Christian Taylor 15:26
Keep going. That's it for this episode of Documentary First: The Deep Dive. If you want to hear my full conversation with Quinnolyn Benson-Yates about Epic Bill distribution and the seven-year journey of making our first feature documentary, check out episode 272 of the main Documentary First podcast. And if this episode resonated with you, if you're in your own valley right now or if you've climbed out of one, I'd love to hear about it. Drop me a message and I might just feature some of your responses in a future episode. Until next time, please keep telling stories that matter.
Christian Taylor 16:05
I'm Christian Taylor. Thanks for diving in with me. Hey everybody, thanks for spending a few minutes with me on The Deep Dive. If you like this, subscribe so you don't miss the next one. And check out the full Documentary First podcast for longer conversations with the filmmakers behind the docs you love. You can find both shows wherever you listen to podcast. And if you want to support what we're doing, visit documentaryfirst.com. We'll see you next time.