Prehistoric Planet Composers on Building Instruments From Fossils

Documentary First, Episode 203. Christian Taylor and co-host Jason Rugg talk with Anže Rozman and Kara Talve, composers of Prehistoric Planet on Apple TV+. 40 minutes. Released August 17, 2023.

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How do you write music for animals no one has heard in 66 million years?

That was the puzzle for composers Anže Rozman and Kara Talve on season two of Prehistoric Planet, the Apple TV+ natural history series narrated by Sir David Attenborough. The producers wanted audiences to feel they were watching real animals living their lives, like an episode of Planet Earth. So the music had two jobs: make these creatures relatable, and carry the listener back in time. Their answer was an orchestra on one side, and on the other, instruments built from the things we study dinosaurs with today: fossils, bones, fossil replicas, rocks and petrified wood.

In Episode 203 of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor and co-host Jason Rugg talk with Anže and Kara, who met at Hans Zimmer's composer collective Bleeding Fingers Music and scored the series with Zimmer. Anže grew up in Slovenia, a country of about two million people where, he says, every village has its own church choir or brass band. He started composing at nine and laughs that the next ten years were "not a pleasant listening experience." Kara grew up between her grandmother's classical piano and her dad's jazz guitar, fell for the film music of Thomas Newman, went to Berklee, and worked as a tech assistant at Bleeding Fingers for a few months before she was promoted to composer.

Anže holds up the Triceratone on camera, the last instrument they built for season two, made from a dinosaur skull replica and a double bass neck. They talk about the shock of an Emmy nomination, what it's like to work with Hans "basically working next door," and their advice for anyone who wants a career in Los Angeles: love the work enough to put in the hours, and be someone people want to work with. After the interview, Christian shares news from two sold-out screenings of The Girl Who Wore Freedom in Ormond Beach, Florida, and a research trip to Fort Campbell, and she and Jason talk about the 2023 strikes and what they might change.

In this episode, you'll learn

• How growing up in Slovenia shaped Anže's love of music
• Why Anže says passion and time matter more than talent
• How Kara went from Berklee to tech assistant to composer
• What it's like to learn from Hans Zimmer at Bleeding Fingers
• Why the team made instruments out of fossils and petrified wood
• How an orchestra and dinosaur-bone instruments share one score
• How Anže and Kara found out about their Emmy nomination
• Why Kara says cold emails rarely work, and what does
• What Christian found in the archives at Fort Campbell
• Why Christian and Jason hope the 2023 strikes change how crews get paid

Questions and answers

Who composed the music for Prehistoric Planet?

Hans Zimmer, Anže Rozman and Kara Talve scored Prehistoric Planet for Apple TV+, working through Zimmer's Bleeding Fingers Music. Anže and Kara say they met at Bleeding Fingers, where composers each run their own projects but collaborate and share what they know. Season two premiered May 22, 2023, and their score for the episode "Badlands" was nominated for a Primetime Emmy.

What instruments were used in the Prehistoric Planet score?

Anže Rozman says the team recorded the BBC National Orchestra of Wales to make the animals feel real and relatable, then built instruments from the materials we study dinosaurs with today: fossils, bones, fossil replicas, rocks and petrified wood. The last one built for season two, the Triceratone, combines a dinosaur skull replica with a double bass neck. Kara Talve says the goal, from Hans Zimmer on down, is to think outside the box.

What is it like to work with Hans Zimmer?

Anže Rozman says Bleeding Fingers is a collective where every composer has their own projects, and there is always someone down the hall who knows something better than you. Having Hans "basically working next door" is, he says, an extreme honor and privilege. Kara Talve says Hans's main goal for every score is to think outside the box and bring something new to the table.

How do you become a film composer?

Anže Rozman says it isn't about talent so much as the passion and time you're willing to put in, and that it's very hard to work on music every day and get worse. Kara Talve says the 10,000 hours are real, and that you should be someone people want to work with. When reaching out, she suggests listening to people's work and connecting first, because a cold "can you help me" email rarely goes anywhere.

Was Prehistoric Planet nominated for an Emmy?

Yes. Hans Zimmer, Anže Rozman and Kara Talve were nominated at the 75th Primetime Creative Arts Emmys for Outstanding Music Composition for a Documentary Series or Special (Original Dramatic Score), for the season two episode "Badlands." Anže says they were so sure they wouldn't be nominated that they weren't even refreshing the page. He was outside talking to construction workers when Kara started screaming.

Where can I watch Prehistoric Planet?

Prehistoric Planet streams on Apple TV+. This conversation is about season two, which premiered in May 2023.

Chapters

Times match the YouTube video.

• 0:00 Prehistoric Planet's Composers
• 3:59 Slovenia, Berklee and Bleeding Fingers
• 10:31 Working Next Door to Hans Zimmer
• 13:13 Instruments Made From Fossils
• 17:08 Emmy News and Guest Picks
• 22:28 Advice for a Career in LA
• 26:13 A Screening in Ormond Beach
• 30:23 Archives at Fort Campbell
• 34:10 Christian's Pick and the Strikes

Watch the film

Prehistoric Planet streams on Apple TV+. Season two credits are in the Apple TV+ announcement.

DocuView Deja View picks: Kara recommends The Staircase (2004), Jean-Xavier de Lestrade's true crime series about the Michael Peterson murder trial, now on Netflix. Kara has her own theory: the owl. Anže recommends Ancient Apocalypse (2022), the Netflix series in which writer Graham Hancock presents his theory of a lost civilization before the end of the last ice age, a theory many experts dispute. Christian's pick is a radio conversation rather than a film: "The Changing Hollywood Landscape" (2023) from NPR's Fresh Air, with Terry Gross and Bloomberg reporter Lucas Shaw. See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

About the guests

Anže Rozman is a Slovenian composer of concert and media music and a composer at Hans Zimmer's Bleeding Fingers Music. He studied composition at the music academy in Ljubljana and earned a Master of Music in scoring for film, television and video games at Berklee's Valencia campus. His credits include BBC's The Universe and The Planets, the IMAX film Great Bear Rainforest and the opening title music for BBC's Frozen Planet II, both co-composed with Hans Zimmer, and music for The Simpsons. Anže at Berklee

Kara Talve is a film and television composer at Bleeding Fingers Music, originally from Long Island, New York. She graduated from Berklee College of Music in 2018 with a degree in film scoring and a minor in video game scoring. She co-scored Prehistoric Planet with Anže and Hans Zimmer, and at the time of this episode she had been a principal composer on The Simpsons for four seasons. Kara at Berklee

About the series: Prehistoric Planet is executive produced by Jon Favreau and Mike Gunton, produced by the BBC Studios Natural History Unit for Apple TV+, and narrated in its first two seasons by Sir David Attenborough.

Related conversations

More from Documentary First on nature films and film music: National Geographic photographer Brian Skerry on Sea Change and the warming Gulf of Maine, and Sarah Burns and David McMahon on Leonardo da Vinci, including Caroline Shaw's score with the vocal ensemble Roomful of Teeth.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Follow the show | Support on Patreon

Full transcript

This transcript was made from the recording and lightly cleaned up. It may contain small errors.

The conversation with Kara Talve and Anže Rozman

Jason Rugg: Welcome back to Documentary First, an inside look at a documentary filmmaker's journey. I'm your host, Jason Rug. I'm joined as always by Christian Taylor.

Christian: Hey Jason, how are you today?

Jason Rugg: Good. Glad to be here. We have two very special guests we're excited to talk to here. Um both of which are known for prehistoric planet two. That's what we're here to talk about but they've also worked on some other incredible things. So, we'll dig right into this here. We've got uh Kara Telvi.

Christian: Yeah, me too.

Kara Talve: Yes, hi, thanks for having us.

Jason Rugg: Glad to have you here. And then Christian, do you want to introduce our other guest?

Christian: Yes, so this is Anže Rozman. Rosemont, yeah did I do okay? You're welcome, tried my best. So happy to have you guys here. Yeah, I think you also worked on Prehistoric Planet, right?

Anže Rozman: Great. Yes, fantastic. Thank you. Glad to be here. Thank you. Yep. Yeah, we both did.

Kara Talve: Yep. Season one and two.

Christian: Yeah, so we're in season two now. We're gonna talk about season two. I'm sure it's really, you know, very similar to what you did in season one, but we're gonna focus on two because it's out now and you can find it on Apple TV+. So Jason, why don't you give us a little bit of the logline and their bios real quick. We were gonna be short with them today and try to get through it. We wanna hear what they have to say. So kick us off with a little bit about what the series is about.

Anže Rozman: I think that's a good question.

Jason Rugg: Yeah, so Prehistoric Planet is from executive producers, John Favreau and Mike Gunton and narrated by Sir David Attenborough. It combines a ward way and wildlife filmmaking with the latest paleontology learnings and state of the art technology to unveil the spectacular habitats and inhabitants of ancient Earth from one of a kind immersive experience. And it's available on Apple TV Plus, if I'm remembering correctly, right? OK, we don't have that written here. Just want to make sure.

Christian: Mm-hmm, that's correct, yeah.

Jason Rugg: Yeah, and so then our two guests, we have Angé and some of some of your credits are just absolutely incredible. You got BBC's The Universe, which was just an absolutely incredible series. I love that series. The Planets and IMAX features The Giant Bear Rainforest, which was co-composed with Hans Zimmer. And then the opening title music for Do you have any other titles you want to mention before we move on?

Anže Rozman: No, I think that's good. Thank you. It's just that I think it's great bare rainforest. Yeah.

Jason Rugg: Okay. And then I... Great Bear Rainforest. Okay, yeah, the Great Bear Rainforest, yeah. And then we have Kara Talvi, who has worked on Prehistoric Planet, alongside Hans Zimmer. And then we also have, you're currently working on The Simpsons, am I right?

Kara Talve: Yeah, yeah, I've been principal composer on The Simpsons for four seasons now. So, yeah, that's a separate call, I guess.

Jason Rugg: That's absolutely incredible. I would love to hear some more about that. Yeah. So Christian, do you want to take it from there?

Christian: Yeah, so you guys, I am fascinated to talk with you. I've only worked with one composer up to this point, and I know that everybody has their own different style. And as I read your bios and dug into your past a little bit, it seems like that you have worked together. Maybe you even went to school together early on. Is that correct?

Anže Rozman: Yes, we need to be able to do that. And I think that's a great idea. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. Yes.

Kara Talve: Uh, no, we didn't go to school together. We met at Bleeding Fingers. So, and since then we've been working together on, well, I guess just prehistoric planet, but feels like we work together more because we're also getting married next year. So we're, yeah.

Christian: No? I'm going to go ahead and close the video. Oh, you too are getting married to, oh my goodness. How about that? Congratulations.

Jason Rugg: Oh wow. Congrats, that's awesome.

Kara Talve: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so we, I don't know, feels like we work together a lot.

Christian: Yes, your lives are very intertwined and that's what I got from reading your bios. And I guess I wondered how did you, you know, fall into this field, choose it, how did you get to where you are today? So we have people that are just starting out as composers that are probably listening to this right now and they're looking at your resumes, looking at you on IMDB and wondering how in the world did you get here from where you started? So can you summarize that pretty quickly for us?

Anže Rozman: So, yeah, well. I was born in a small chicken shaped country called Slovenia. It's tucked between Italy, Austria, Croatia, and Hungary. There's only 2 million of us. But we have influences from the Western countries, Italy and France, Northern countries, Austria, and on the East, the Balkan nations. So we have a very, very deep rooted heritage of of music and art because of that. Every village has its own church choir or brass band. We have three professional orchestras in our capital of Ljubljana, you know, that's inhabited, I think, less than 300,000 people. We have our music academy where I also studied music composition at. And if you ever have the privilege, if I can say to go to Ljubljana. especially during the summer, and just walk around, you will see how much music there is everywhere. There's a concert that, there's like multiple concerts of every single style that you can go to on any given night. So I was surrounded by that from my early childhood, and I just had this passion of writing music. So that's what I did for most of my... life for the past 20 years.

Christian: I think I read that you started at nine or something composing?

Anže Rozman: Well, yeah, I mean, you could say that I started at nine, but what I was doing from nine till about 19, I would say, was not a pleasant listening experience.

Kara Talve: I can double down on that, it was not good.

Anže Rozman: Yeah, we were just listening to some of my crap early music a few days ago with Kara. But, you know, it's, I think what's, if we're speaking to the younger generation, it's not about how talented you are per se, but how much passion and time you're willing to put into the craft that you aspire to get good at. If I would spend the same amount of time that I spent writing music doing anything, I would be pretty good at it probably. It just happened to be that I liked writing music.

Christian: Yeah, I mean, how often do we hear that? Every, you know, you talk about how crappy it was for those 10 years or whatever, but it is all of that fundamental foundational making of mistakes and making bad stuff in order to start figuring out how to do it right. And we talk all the time on this podcast about you have to stick it out and you have to work hard and you can't quit or else it won't ever happen. So thank you for that word because it just echoes what we've been saying for sure. What about you, Kara? Tell us about your... Ascension to where you are today.

Kara Talve: So I come from a musician family, kind of. My grandma was a pianist and my dad is a guitar player. So I was always kind of surrounded by the influence of classical music from my grandma. And my dad is more of a jazz head. So I got to combine these two things. And I think it helps me a lot with my composition and also, especially my work on The Simpsons, where. often we have to do show tunes or songs and that jazz stuff really helps me with that task. But yeah, when I was young, I was always taking piano lessons, which I did not thoroughly enjoy. But eventually it grew on me. And I really wanted to do film music because I was really inspired by the music of Thomas Newman. So I went to Berklee College of Music to try to pursue this and I got a really good foundation there and I made a lot of connections. And then I wanted to make sure that I had some stuff set up in LA because I knew that's the place I need to go when I graduate, right? So I had internships and some assistant positions lined up and eventually I ended up at Bleeding Fingers where I was a tech assistant for a while, not that long, maybe like six or seven months. And then I eventually got promoted to. composer. So it's been quite the journey and here we are. Yeah.

Christian: Yeah, quite the ride. I was wondering what, you know, composers inspired you. So what about you, Angé? What about your inspirations?

Anže Rozman: Well, I would say that probably my first inspiration was Tchaikovsky. When I lived with my parents in Nashville, Tennessee for three years, from 95 to 98, they took me, especially my mom, she was adamant that we go see The Nutcracker by the Nashville Symphony. So for the three years that we were there, after the first year, I wanted to go listen to The Nutcracker every single December. And I think... Was it two years ago with Kara? We went to, we were in Slovenia and we went to the. Ljubljana Opera House to see the Nutcracker. I try to see it. It's still one of my favorites.

Christian: Now I have to go to that upper house. I have to go to your country because it sounds just, it sounds like it's incredible.

Anže Rozman: Yeah. But yeah, Tchaikovsky and then with film music, you know, the obvious John Williams, Star Wars and Indiana Jones, and then later on Hans Zimmer's Gladiator and The Rock and Howard Schor's Lord of the Rings.

Christian: Yeah, wow. I mean, you've been exposed to an incredible mentor where you are, what's it been like to work there? And how are you a better composer by working with Hans Zimmer? We'll start with you, huh?

Anže Rozman: I think that's a really good question. Um, but, you know, there's so many doors of people working on music and there's always someone that knows something better than you. So if you need help, there's always someone. Now, you know, you can imagine what kind of privilege it is that we also have Hans basically working next door and learning from him, which almost every single composer alive now, you know, looks up to him. So it's an extreme honor and privilege. And just by, but I'll go back to my first point, just by working on music every day, you get better. It's very hard to work on something every day, put your time into it and get worse.

Christian: Very true, good point. Kara, what about you?

Anže Rozman: So, I'm gonna take this.

Kara Talve: Yeah, I mean, I second that. He pretty much summed it up. It's really cool to be on the campus with really seasoned, great composers. And we can all share our knowledge together. And Hans's main goal for this kind of score and for anything that we do, and our goal is just to think outside the box and make it unique and special and do something that brings something new to the table.

Christian: So I did watch the first episode of Prehistoric Planet 2. And I will say what my favorite thing is clearly the music. It's incredibly creative. It does take you off to a different place. I was not sure where the score left off and sound effects came in, because they were kind of together, sort of mixed into the music. I would love to hear about your creative process in general, but then I know there was a very special creative process for this Prehistoric Planet series. So Anjie, why don't we start with you and talk a little bit about the creative process that you guys use, and then maybe talk more specifically about what was different about this particular production.

Anže Rozman: So yeah, as Kara said. comes down from Hans and then later from Russell Emanuel, our CEO and score producer, is before any project, we go through this period of what we can call maybe a pre-compositional process or a brainstorming process where we just ponder. So with Prehistoric Planet, the pondering was about how to make these amazing majestic creatures of the past relatable. How do we help the illusion that the producers were intending that the audience is seeing actual animals living their lives like they would be watching planet Earth? So how do we help this illusion with the music? Our answer to that was to use orchestra, BBC National Orchestra of Wales we ended up recording with. On the other hand, we wanted to transport the listener back in time 66 million years So how do we do that? So then we came up onto the, this idea. Let's try to make instruments out of the materials of which we can study dinosaurs today, meaning fossils, bones, fossil replicas, rocks, petrified wood. And, uh, yeah.

Christian: Yeah, so what was that like, Kara? I mean, were you on board with this idea and did one person come up with this idea? Are you showing us those instruments back there?

Kara Talve: Oh, he's showing you one. Oh, how are you zooming in there?

Anže Rozman: Yeah, here, there it is.

Christian: Wow, that's cool.

Anže Rozman: I have a cool camera now.

Jason Rugg: This is a very cool camera. Ha ha ha.

Christian: Yeah, you people that are listening are going to have to go to YouTube and watch what he just zoomed in on. What is that actually? Can you zoom back in and talk us through what that is?

Anže Rozman: Oh, yeah, no, let me bring it closer.

Christian: That's even better.

Anže Rozman: Oh, I just realized I had my headphones on while the speakers were still blasting, so maybe I'll...

Christian: That's why it was echoing. Oh my goodness gracious.

Anže Rozman: So this is the last instrument that we built for season two. It's called the Triceratone, built out of a Nedoceratops fossil skull replica. Double bass neck, ammonite crest, and velociraptor claw tuning pegs. The last two, obviously, for aesthetic reasons, but it does make a very cool sound.

Christian: Oh my gracious. That is unbelievable. Let me hold up the head towards the camera because we did see the, we saw the neck of it, but move closer to the camera because we can't really see you well.

Jason Rugg: ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Kara Talve: I'm sorry.

Christian: There, look at that. So I'm assuming, I'm assuming that was a replica skeleton.

Anže Rozman: It's really heavy, you're giving me a workout.

Jason Rugg: Is it, you said it was a metal cast of it?

Kara Talve: It's like a, what's the material, Ange? It's almost like. It's not plastic. It's almost like a paper mache-ish material with like a plastic cast over it. Yeah.

Christian: Okay, you took it away too soon. I was gonna ask you to play it for us.

Jason Rugg: and I'm going to go to bed.

Anže Rozman: We can send you some clips, I think, because we're low on time. It's better.

Jason Rugg: Oh yeah, that would be awesome.

Christian: Yes. Oh, yes, we are. I got so engrossed in what you were doing that I lost track of the time already. We really only have a few minutes left. So let me skip through my questions. We talked about the custom built. Okay. Well, you've been nominated for an Emmy, it sounds like. Yeah. Talk to me about that experience.

Kara Talve: Yeah, somehow. Well, there's not much to say about it other than we're extremely shocked and honored to be nominated by our talented peers and that the music was acknowledged is an amazing feeling.

Christian: How did you find out?

Kara Talve: Um, well.

Anže Rozman: I was trying to figure out why I was outside on our front porch trying to figure out why our landlord was making me take all my lavenders and roses off the front porch. So I was talking to some construction workers and then Kara started screaming, we got nominated, we got nominated.

Kara Talve: Yeah, well, our PR, Impact24, Andrew Cohen from Impact24 called us. So, because we were very sure that we were not getting nominated. So it's not something we were like, we weren't refreshing the page or anything, you know.

Christian: That's just. Yeah, that's amazing. Well, congratulations for that. We had you bring a Daki Vu Deja Vu really quickly. So I want you to let me know a documentary that you recommend. Although we haven't officially gone into the Daki Vu Deja Vu segment. So, but we're going to have you throw that out and then we're going to have you just give a word of advice. Now, you've already given a few pieces of advice to our audience, but think about...

Kara Talve: Thank you.

Christian: The specific piece of advice is how do you build your career in LA? That's the advice I want you to give. But while you're thinking about that, tell me a documentary that you recommend we watch. We'll start with you, Kara.

Kara Talve: I recommend you watch The Staircase.

Christian: Tell us why you like it and where we can find it.

Kara Talve: I, it's on Netflix and probably somewhere else, but I know it's on Netflix. And, um, it is a murder trial and I love these things and I don't think he did it by the way. So I will just say that I believe it was an owl and we will get to that point. A lot of people think this is a conspiracy, but I just don't buy it.

Anže Rozman: It's really

Jason Rugg: Which...

Kara Talve: I think that it was the owl and Michael Peterson is innocent and everybody leave him alone. That's what I have to say. My extravaganza.

Anže Rozman: My- my drop.

Christian: I love it.

Jason Rugg: Is this the series where they made the documentary in the mid 2000s and then they made like a drama series like last year? Okay, I remember that. They're both on my list. So I'm so excited to hear you.

Anže Rozman: Well...

Kara Talve: Yeah, they did. Yeah. Yeah, the drama is really good too. And the drama goes through the possible ways that it could have happened. I think the owl is included. I forget. But yeah, it's really good. It's a good watch.

Christian: Okay, great! Alright, Ajay, what's about you?

Jason Rugg: That's fantastic.

Anže Rozman: Well, we watch all these documentaries and everything we watch together with Kara. So I am, I don't know if Michael did it. I'm on the fence. Um, but I also made Kara watch ancient apocalypse on Netflix. Um, it's, uh, I've been following the reporter and novelist writer, Graham

Jason Rugg: I'm going to go to bed.

Anže Rozman: since, I don't know, early 2000s when I watched a documentary called Lost Civilizations on Netflix. So Graham's theory is that there might have been. an ancient civilization that lived before the last Ice Age, 12,800 years ago. And now it's almost, I think, fact that a giant comet splintered in around Earth's orbit, around 12,800 years ago, crashed into the Canadian ice sheets, caused mass destruction, floods, and ended the Ice Age, killed all the megafauna. And that's why we have all the Noah, Ark, Deluge, myths in all cultures. So Ancient Apocalypse explores that theory. And I think it's a very interesting watch. I will say that I absolutely thought that the music choices were horrendous.

Christian: Interesting.

Kara Talve: Might have to cut that out.

Jason Rugg: I'm sorry.

Anže Rozman: I really thought that the music was like overpower. Very loud.

Kara Talve: I mean, it was very, very loud. It's not necessarily the composer's fault, but.

Anže Rozman: Yeah, no, I think I don't think there was a composer. I think it was all library music. That's why I can say if there was a composer, I apologize. But yeah, it was over. It was overly loud. Uh, but yeah, with Graham Hangock, your journey from, you know, North America to Turkey, to I think Syria. And it's a very, very good.

Christian: Well, thank you for that recommendation. Yeah, so while you're still speaking, why don't you give us a last word, a parting word of advice?

Jason Rugg: That's awesome.

Anže Rozman: Parting word of advice of how to make a career in Los Angeles, I will turn it around and say how to make a career in any field, anywhere in the world. I think the most important thing to note is that you have to be passionate about it. You have to love what you do because if you don't love what you do, you will not be able to spend the adequate time to get better at the craft. whatever that might be. And don't be a dick.

Kara Talve: I'm saying we're literally on a podcast. You can't say that.

Anže Rozman: Sorry, is-

Jason Rugg: Yeah, people probably need to hear that.

Christian: I think it's, you can, you can absolutely, you absolutely can say that on our podcast. I live in a house with five men. I live in a house with five men and they would have gotten that message. So it's actually very true. So anyway, don't apologize. All right, Kara, what's your last parting word of advice?

Anže Rozman: Okay, I'm sorry.

Kara Talve: Okay, um, don't be a dick. That's not okay. Um, what? Um, I agree with Amsha. It's being personable and in anything you do, be a person that people want to work with and the rest is gonna fall into place. And of course, when people say, get your 10,000 hours, that is not a joke.

Anže Rozman: Kara?

Christian: I'm sorry.

Kara Talve: It's a real thing. That's when you become an expert in your field. And I think we definitely have those hours now, but it's a long path to really know what you're doing. And if you want to learn from people, there is a way to reach out to them in a way that makes them. want to help you. So, you know, these cold emails sometimes that we get, hi, can you help me with this? It's not really like going to be fruitful for anyone. So my advice is to really try to connect with people, listen to their work, and they will be willing to help you.

Jason Rugg: That's such good advice. Thank you so much for being here and we have to let you guys go. We're right down to the wire. So thank you both for coming by. Yep. All right. Thanks guys.

Christian: Beautiful. Go ahead.

Kara Talve: Thanks for having us.

Christian: Yeah. But everybody stick around. Don't, don't leave listeners.

Kara Talve: I'm excited what happens next on the podcast.

Christian: Yeah, there is more. We are going to talk about our docuVid Asia booze and then we're going to talk about our experience listening and just my company update. So I'm in the middle of working on my next documentary film. So yeah, you know.

Jason Rugg: You'll have to listen.

Anže Rozman: Oh, well, can we can we at least get from you what your documentaries are? Because we love watching documentaries.

Christian: All right, do you want to type it in right now so that way you have it on your computer? Okay, it's just, if you can go, if you wanna go to Amazon or Voodoo, or if you just wanna write it on a sheet of paper, it is thegirlwhowarfreedom.com. So go watch the Freedom, basically it's the Girl Who War...

Christian and Jason, after the guests left

Jason Rugg: Well, they were just fantastic. That was so fascinating.

Christian: That, I know they were so fascinating. I just could have talked to them much longer for sure because we were starting to get into the meat of, you know, their instruments and their creative process. And I sure would have loved to have dug around that dirt a little bit more.

Jason Rugg: It's so fascinating to me that I know Hum Zimmer has talked about playing the guitar with a nail instead of a pick. He'll break instruments and he'll just play them weird. It seems like that ethos really carried over into what they're doing where it's like, let's make a stand-up bass out of a Triceratops skull. So fascinating. Yeah. Super cool.

Christian: Yeah, that was killer. Yeah, their creativity just pervades every single thing they do. Even the spaces they live in and how they were talking just about other things, whether they're other movies that they watched and instruments that they wanted to work on and what their background was. Just super interesting people. I really am cheering them on for that Emmy. How amazing would that be?

Jason Rugg: Oh yeah. Yeah, they totally deserve it too. Like the music is just phenomenal and it's just so cool to see so many amazing artists getting to work on just incredible different things, you know, break out of the box. Oh yeah.

Christian: Yeah. Well. Yeah, we'll have them back for sure. We'll have them back and they can talk about their upcoming projects. And we'll talk to Kara about the Simpsons. That's got to be interesting. And anyway, best of luck to them. So Jason, we do have a little bit of shopkeeping here to do. I'm going to give you a documentary first company update. It has been an interesting time over the last few weeks. We did do a girl who wore freedom screening in Ormond beach, Florida. It was an incredible screening. We partnered with the church, the Episcopal Church across the street. We held the screen, two screenings there. It sold out immediately on the first day when it was announced. And so we had two full screenings and people just loved the film and just couldn't stop talking about it, wanted to share it with people, bought DVDs. That was incredibly exciting. Another museum came up and wanted us to come back to their museum. It was... It was really refreshing. It's the first screening I've done in a long time. And it was refreshing to me to see how much our film still moves people and how many, it reminded me how many people out there still haven't seen it. So it was just beautiful to watch it with people, see them laugh, see them cry, hear all of their questions afterwards. They love to stay and talk and share stories. Uh, one special thing happened during my time in Ormond beach that I do need to share because I mean, who else would this happen to me, but I really needed some time to recoup after some difficult things have happened in the last few months. And I decided I was going to book a few days, extra days, just to be at the beach. So the very first morning I got there, I'm out there at like, I don't know, 530, 545, something like that, watching the sun come up. It was amazing. But I was there so early because the night before I wanted to watch the sunset. and I stayed out until 11 o'clock till the sun was long gone. Just being there listening to the waves. I get up and I get to my room and my glasses are gone. And I was like, no, where are my glasses? So I took my flashlight and I walked all the way outside. I look for my glasses for a half an hour and here's the scary part. We were where sea turtles lay their eggs and you're not supposed to walk around outside with any like flashlights or anything like that.

Jason Rugg: No!

Christian: So here I'm going, I have to have my glasses, but I don't want to scare the sea turtle babies away, you know, and I was just really torn about this dilemma, but I looked for my glasses anywhere, went straight to where I was sitting. I looked all around me, no glasses. I went back to my little cabin. I'm asking God, please let me find my glasses. And I just prayed all through the night. I'm like, I'm going to get up really early. So 5.45, I'm out there and I'm the first person out there. I walk out to where I'd sat the day before and there were my glasses just sitting right there. And I was like, well, that was easy. So I sat down, I was watching the sunrise and all of a sudden this woman came up to me and said, well, you must've been the first one out here. And I was like, well, I was. And she said, is it something special? And I said, well, not really. It's my first day at the beach. And she said, I'm like, is it special for you? And she goes, well, it's my 70th birthday and I'm here to celebrate life. And I was like, that is so beautiful. So we started talking. She asked me why I was there. I told her. And when I told her about the screening for the girl who wore freedom and what the movie was about, she said, my dear friend back at home was born in a cave in France and during the occupation. And she survived on breast milk and potatoes. And she stayed in that cave until the American soldiers liberated her. And I was like, are you kidding me? Like, seriously? That's, I just can't even believe it. It was just too much to believe. But I felt like it was a moment I was meant to be there for, you know, and had I not lost my glasses, I probably wouldn't have been out there early in order to meet my friend, my now friend, Michelle. So that was a very special moment and we had a great screening and I left from there and I went to Fort Campbell, Kentucky once again to do some more research.

Jason Rugg: Oh my gosh.

Christian: with the Pratt Museum and my new hero, Pat Sealing. So Pat Sealing is a first lieutenant, Pat Sealing. He is the historian, the current historian at the Pratt Museum. He's working under Dr. John O'Brien. And he is passionate about history. I met him for the first time when I was, you know, filming there in the museum. But then we ran into each other in Normandy, got to spend some more time talking. And he just is just incredibly passionate. And he's offered to help us with Heroes of Carantan. So he's come on board as one of the historical consultants for this film. And so he and I went in there digging through all of the archives on Fort Campbell. They have a museum that has a few little warehouse rooms that we dug around it and file cabinets. They have a field house just full of stuff that nobody really ever sees. And then the most tragic thing of all is that they have this giant warehouse in the back. almost that has holes in the roof where birds fly in, lay their nest, there are dead birds on the floor, there's bird poop everywhere. It is a travesty in all of these amazing historical documents and there's vehicles and there's anything you can imagine, clothes and weapons and just all these things lying all over the place with bird poop all over them. It made me very angry as a tax bagger, I have to say. The thing that made me so sad is that we found stuff in there. It was like, at some point I said, this is like going through my grandmother's attic. And Pat said, this is like going through every grandmother's attic you've ever known. And I was like, that is what it's like, because it was taking days, you know, like such a long time for us to get anywhere. And we found Bud Harper's, like a bunch of Bud Harper's items. and it looks like they were taken from his desk. And Colonel Bud Harper was one of the colonels in World War II with the 101st Airborne Division that fought in the Battle of Carantan. And all of his personal stuff was just thrown in a box and just shoved into this file cabinet. And I just sat there looking at this man's life and just wanted to cry because nobody cares about this stuff. You know, and that was true across many different boxes that we found, many different collections. And so I was happy to be in there. caring about those documents and stuff. But I just didn't have enough time to do a ton of research. So I left and there was a drawer that I had opened and I saw a picture book in there, but I didn't have time to go and open it. And so I called Pat and I was like, can you just go and check in that book? Cause I'd been dreaming about it. And so the next day he went back into the archives and he opened a file cabinet and he started pulling out that book and a few others. and we hit a mother load of stuff that nobody has ever seen. And it's from one of the heroes of Caratthon that absolutely nobody knows about. And we found things that we can use in our film that are contemporaneous that this soldier did. And I'm just beyond excited because we have a really clear, I feel completely led to these items. And we... have a way to work them into the script now. So that's the most exciting news really is that we have continued to receive direction about how this script is gonna go. So Zach Callahan and I are trying to figure that out. Now we have to transcribe a bunch of things. It's just, we're scanning a bunch of pictures and documents. Pat's become a scanning expert over there at the Pratt Museum, so. Yeah, so that's the update. Yeah, the next few weeks are gonna be a lot of continued research and organization of all the things that we found and writing our outline. So that's what's going on right now.

Jason Rugg: That's absolutely incredible. Wow. Well, awesome. I guess it's time for DocuVu Deja Vu, even though we kind of did it and now it's just one. It's all live order, but it's fine.

Christian: Easy. It is now time for DocuVue Deja Vu. It's just that I didn't want, you're gonna have to edit this out, but I didn't want Jason to insert the theme song early because it wasn't really the segment, I don't know. Anyway, okay, DocuVue Deja Vu. Jason, I don't think you have anything for today, so I'm gonna take the whole time today. I wanna talk about something that I think people really, really oughta listen to.

Jason Rugg: don't.

Christian: And this is actually a podcast that was done on fresh air at NPR with Terry Gross and Lucas Shaw of Bloomberg called the Changing Hollywood Landscape. It's a podcast that lasts about 45 minutes. We will put the link in our show notes. The Changing Landscape of Hollywood is something that really no one can figure out. But I think Lucas Shaw, because he's been studying this so long for such a high level, has some deep insights that I think we all need to listen to. And I still think that nobody can truly predict where we're going, but what it made me realize was how much of the corporate business at the top is really determining everything. And we're in unchartered territory, you know, we really are.

Jason Rugg: Yeah. Are there any key takeaways beyond that you want to?

Christian: The one that stuck in my head was that these corporations, whether they're Disney, Amazon, Apple TV, they are not in the business of entertainment. They're in the business of selling things. They're in the business of advertising. And so what they really care about is their business and making sure that it's viable and making sure that. You know, it's continuing to make money and thankfully businesses like Amazon and Apple TV have many other things that they can rely on to support their business. Entertainment is not their main one. As Bob Iger said himself, you know, he's trying to figure out what to do with probably selling off some of his properties. It, it really is interesting. And thankfully, I mean, I'm thankful for the strike, um, for the writer's strike and the actor's strike simply because it is time to to renegotiate the way all of these things happen. It used to be so clear and cut and you could amend things so that it felt fair to everybody, but it just doesn't anymore. It's just like, there's no way to have any sort of equitable pay for people in the way that things are structured right now, so that was my takeaway.

Jason Rugg: Which is why I think, have you looked into Matt Damon and Ben Affleck's new production company?

Christian: No I have not, tell me more.

Jason Rugg: So it might actually just be called like equity filmmaking or something. But the whole thing is like, if you work on it, you own a chunk of it and you get paid as if you own a chunk of it. Like that's part of your compensation for being on the thing. And I might be. Misremembering that exactly, but it's like, they wanted people to be able to have a slice of the pie and so like air the movie they just recently released. Um, was made by that production company. And so you have like the director of photography owns a small chunk of it and we'll get residual pay for that for the rest of their life. And so that's kind of like, they're trying that they're seeing if that works. They're seeing if there's a model there because they were starting to realize that this isn't working for anyone. And, you know, I think that it's interesting that you have these people who like Ben Affleck and Matt Damon are fine. They could live within the studio system for the rest of their lives, make a ton of money, get paid millions of dollars every time they get, you know, cast in a movie. And that's it. But they said, no, because this actually isn't sustainable for the people down below. And they're, they're at the top and they send the elevator back down. And I think that's cool. And I think that hopefully we're going to see more stuff like that come from this. Um, yeah. So maybe we should do an episode where we do like a deep dive on that, because that would be really interesting to just talk about what they're doing and how they're doing it.

Christian: Yeah, that's just... Yeah, can we get them on? Can somebody work that out? Let's get Ben Affleck and Matt Damon on. I'd love that. That's true. They should be able to come on. Yeah, you know, they're amazing people. And I do think that it is going to take that quite frankly. I have felt forever that it is the crew that really gets screwed in this equation completely. Even now in the strike, they're the ones that are taking the brunt of it because.

Jason Rugg: Yeah. I mean, they're not working right now.

Christian: you know, actors and actresses, it doesn't matter if you're at my level or if you're at Ben Affleck's level, the talent always get paid more than the crew working. And I just, and then they work harder, you know, it's more physical. And I just feel like that's not very just. So I'm glad to know that there are people that are addressing that. Speaking of Ben Affleck and Matt Damon, or I guess I should say Casey Affleck and Matt Damon, that movie Oppenheimer that I saw last night was...

Jason Rugg: Good.

Christian: For real, that was unbelievable.

Jason Rugg: I have never seen Casey Affleck be so scary. Like, I was shocked, like, for only being in like two scenes. Like, oh man, we could do a whole episode just talking about Oppenheimer.

Christian: He was so scary. I don't want to... Yeah, I saw it in the theater where you like actually feel like a bomb is going off. That really makes a difference when you see the film. You can't have that experience at home.

Jason Rugg: No, it's a must see in theaters. It's theaters or what's the point?

Christian: for sure. Exactly. All right. Well, that's kind of it for us today. Thank you guys so much for listening. You want to take us out of here? Thanks for listening.

Jason Rugg: Yeah, thank you for listening to Documentary First, where we believe everyone has a story to tell, and you can be the one to tell it.

Christian: Yes you can. Bye everybody.

Jason Rugg: Yeah, so.