Creating Unique Soundscapes: Scoring for Documentary Films with Panu Aaltio

Documentary First, Episode 255 · with Panu Aaltio, Finnish film composer · 47 minutes · July 2, 2025

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How does a composer create a film score that fits the story?

In Episode 255 of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor talks with Panu Aaltio, a Finnish film composer based in Helsinki and Los Angeles. He has scored more than 30 feature films, as well as TV series, video games and a full-length ballet for the Finnish National Opera. His scores for the Tale of nature documentary trilogy each won the International Film Music Critics Association award for best documentary score, and he scored Little Siberia, a Finnish crime comedy released as a Netflix original.

Panu traces his path from the cello at age six, and the adventure video games that taught him English, to film music that finally joined his classical playing and the electronic music he made on his computer. He talks about the Sibelius Academy, a demanding year at USC, and the mentor advice that sent him to score student short films for free, which led to his first feature.

Christian and Panu also talk about how directors and composers communicate, why a sad scene sometimes needs almost no music, and how the score for Little Siberia grew from gamelan-style percussion and a Finnish folk instrument into a voice for the film's meteor. Christian compares notes from her own work with Jeff Kurtenacker, the composer of The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

In this episode, you’ll learn

  • How adventure video games taught Panu English and helped spark his love of film scores
  • Why he expected to become a computer programmer, and how film music connected his cello playing with the music he made on his computer
  • What he learned at the Sibelius Academy and USC, including conducting his own orchestral arrangement of a Ravel string quartet in his first weeks
  • The mentor advice that had him scoring student short films for free, and how those connections led to his first feature film
  • Why a director laughed at his big string arrangement for a sad scene, and what it taught him about restraint
  • How to steer a conversation with a director away from instruments and toward the emotion a scene needs
  • How the Little Siberia score grew from gamelan-style percussion loops and a jouhikko melody that came to him on summer vacation
  • Why he builds a bank of musical ideas early, and how his Tale of nature films are still performed live to picture

Questions and answers

How did Panu Aaltio become a film composer?

Panu Aaltio started the cello at six and expected to become a computer programmer, treating music as a hobby. In high school he got deeply into film music, so he studied music technology at the Sibelius Academy in Helsinki and then film scoring at the University of Southern California. His mentor told him to offer to score every short film at the local film school for free, and connections from those short films led to his first feature film, which came out in 2008.

How should a director talk to a film composer?

When a director asks for a specific instrument, Panu Aaltio steers the conversation toward what they want to achieve and what emotion they want to evoke. Professional directors, he says, tend to avoid talking about instruments, because more general instructions lead to surprising results. Host Christian Taylor agrees: tell the composer what you want your audience to feel in the moment, and trust them to know which instrument will create it.

How was the score for Little Siberia created?

Director Dome Karukoski felt no existing music fit Little Siberia, so there was no temp score and Panu Aaltio's music was used in the edit from the start. Panu began with gamelan-style metallophone percussion loops that reminded Karukoski of icicles. The main theme came to him during his July summer vacation: a melody for the jouhikko, a Finnish folk string instrument with a raw, earthy sound, which he recorded with a friend who plays it. The music also gives a voice to the meteor in the story, making the rock a character.

When should a composer start writing music for a film?

Panu Aaltio likes to start early, even from the script, and build a bank of melodies, motifs and sounds to draw from later. Music written from a script can turn out wrong because so much is still interpretation, but a good idea can usually be adapted to whatever the film calls for. Some music he wrote from the script for his first feature is still in that film. On Little Siberia he read the script in summer 2023 and began writing in earnest in spring 2024, once dailies and edited sequences arrived.

What advice does Panu Aaltio give aspiring film composers?

Panu Aaltio passes on the advice he got from his mentors: go find projects to score, learn to talk to and work with directors, and get your music out there. That is how your work starts to speak for itself and people learn to trust you as a collaborator. He also learned early to check whether a film is really calling for what you want to write: a director laughed at the lush string arrangement he wrote for a devastating hospital scene in a student short, where a single note might have been enough.

Chapters

  • 0:00 Introduction to Film Scoring
  • 5:35 Panu's Musical Journey
  • 12:16 From Hobby to Profession
  • 20:13 Navigating Directorial Styles
  • 25:30 The Language of Music in Film
  • 26:24 Understanding Emotional Impact through Score
  • 28:48 Creating Unique Soundscapes for Film
  • 30:41 The Role of Music as a Character
  • 32:13 Experimentation in Composition
  • 35:34 The Importance of Early Composition
  • 41:12 Navigating the Netflix Experience
  • 42:26 The Significance of Documentaries in Career
  • 43:09 DocuView Deja View
  • 44:18 Advice for Aspiring Composers
  • 45:17 Influential Scores and Future Projects

DocuView Deja View picks

DocuView Deja View picks: Panu picks Oceans, the nature documentary, because its Bruno Coulais score was so influential for his Tale of series. When they were working on the first of those films, the director asked him to watch Oceans as one reference, and he says its very cinematic and expressive music made a big impression on him and shaped the style he adopted for his own nature work. Every guest pick is in one place.

About the guest

Panu Aaltio is a Finnish film composer based in Helsinki and Los Angeles, born in Nurmijärvi, Finland, in 1982. His mother has been a piano teacher all her life, and he began studying the cello at age six. He studied music technology at the Sibelius Academy in Helsinki and film scoring at the University of Southern California, where he received the Harry Warren Scholarship for excellence in film scoring. He has composed music for over 30 feature films, multiple TV series and video games, and a full-length ballet for the Finnish National Opera. His scores for the Tale of nature documentary trilogy, Tale of a Forest, Tale of a Lake and Tale of the Sleeping Giants, each received the International Film Music Critics Association award for best documentary score, and Tale of a Lake also earned him Finland's Jussi award for best music. When the episode was recorded, a new Tale of film was in the works, and concerts of Tale of the Sleeping Giants abroad were being planned. More about his work is at panuaaltio.com.

About the film

Little Siberia is a Finnish crime comedy thriller directed by Dome Karukoski, based on Antti Tuomainen's novel, and released as a Netflix original. It was a Netflix project from the start. The story takes place in a very cold part of eastern Finland and involves a meteor, and Panu describes it as a mixture of genres with a strong drama side; he called it "a North Karelian Magnolia" for its sense of a metaphysical level connecting random events. Karukoski also directed Panu's first feature film. The film was edited by Harri, who began cutting in spring 2024 using Panu's music in place of any temp score.

About Documentary First

For people who make documentaries and people who love them. Discover how documentaries actually get made, paid for and seen with filmmaker Christian Taylor. Plus DocuView Deja View, where every guest recommends a documentary worth watching. One week, a long-form conversation about a guest's journey, projects and lessons; the next, The Deep Dive, Christian's short solo reflection on one idea from that conversation. Guests have included Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy. Christian directed the award-winning documentary The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Nearly 300 conversations. Listen Notes top 5% worldwide. 4.8 on Apple Podcasts. New episodes every week. Follow the show · About the podcast · Support the show on Patreon

Resources mentioned

This episode is sponsored by Artillery Sports. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order.

Full transcript

Introduction to Film Scoring

Christian Taylor: Hey there. If you're a frequent listener to our show, you already know that our show is brought to you by our friends over at Artillery Sports. But what you may not know is that Artillery Sports helps athletes of all types win on and off the course and court. They do this by selling quality, durable and precision-manufactured sports equipment that keeps you in the game, while also using a portion of the profits to provide the funding needed to care for our nation's veterans. With Artillery Sports, it's more than just a game.

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Welcome to Documentary First, an inside look into documentary filmmaking. I am your host, Christian Taylor, and a documentary filmmaker myself. In today's episode, we're diving into the world of film scoring with a highly talented and accomplished composer. It's been a little while since we've explored the joys and the challenges of scoring a film, so I'm really excited to dive back in and see what we can learn from today's guest. Now, we're fortunate to have with us today a composer whose work has truly made an impact in the world of film. Panu, let's see if I can say his name. Aaltio? No, help me say it.

Panu Aaltio: It's Panu Aaltio.

Christian: Panu Aaltio. Yes. Oh, I love it. He's from Finland, and so we're gonna have fun with all of these names. So he has an impressive portfolio that includes everything from nature documentaries to gripping thrillers. Panu has made a name for himself in the industry, most recently with his film score for Little Siberia, which was picked up by Netflix, and it's been getting attention for its unique sound, for sure, and emotional depth. I can't wait to hear more about this creative process and its journey. Panu, welcome to the show.

Panu: Thanks so much for having me.

Christian: Yes, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your Finnish lessons already, and learning how to say your name. I am about to give your bio, and so you're going to have to help me again. I told him he's gonna have to feel free to jump in here. I've already forgotten the lesson. So we're about to read this with some fun Finnish words. So, Panu, I'm gonna say your name one more time. So it's Panu Aaltio.

Panu: Yep.

Christian: Did I get it? Okay. Panu Aaltio is a Finnish film composer based in Helsinki and Los Angeles, born in, let's see, say it for me.

Panu: Nurmijärvi.

Christian: Nurmijärvi, Finland. Did I do it?

Panu: Yeah, that's great.

Christian: In 1982. He began studying the cello at age six. He later studied music technology at the Sibelius Academy in Helsinki and film scoring at the University of Southern California, where he received the Harry Warren Scholarship for excellence in film scoring. He has composed music for over 30 feature films, multiple TV series and video games, as well as a full-length ballet for the Finnish National Opera. His notable works include the Tale of nature documentary trilogy, Tale of a Forest, Tale of a Lake and Tale of the Sleeping Giants, for which he received the International Film Music Critics Association award for best documentary score for each film. Tale of a Lake also earned him Finland's, let's see if I can say it, Jussi.

Panu: Mhm. Yeah.

Christian: Jussi award for best music in 2017. Aaltio composed the score for Little Siberia, a Finnish crime comedy thriller directed by, now this is a tough one, Dome Karukoski.

Panu: Yeah.

Christian: Almost. Karukoski? Say it one more time.

Panu: Karukoski.

Christian: Oh, that sounds so beautiful. And based on, here's another one. Antti, say it for me.

Panu: Antti Tuomainen.

Christian: Antti Tuomainen. Antti Tuomainen's novel. And the film was released as a Netflix original. And you can learn more about his work at panuaaltio.com. How'd I do?

Panu: Yeah, that was great. Thanks.

Christian: I still need a lot more Finnish lessons, I think. But that's a good beginning.

Panu: Yeah, definitely.

Christian: Your language is absolutely beautiful.

Panu: Oh, thank you. I'm glad you...

Christian: So when did you learn English?

Panu: I was pretty young, because I wanted to play video games and they were all in English. So I just had to. And you still had those sort of early adventure games where you need to type in the command, so you actually need to know words. So I had a dictionary next to me, and because it was still a paper dictionary, I didn't want to find the same word many times. So you actually learned pretty quickly to remember the names. And then I kind of just emulated the pronunciation from what I heard on TV.

Christian: Wow, that's fascinating. So what were your favorite video games? What were the first ones that you were playing?

Panu: Well, I definitely remember playing the Sierra adventure games, like Space Quest and all these kinds of games. And also the LucasArts adventure games were always my favorites, and there's the Monkey Island games and a lot of them. But I think my favorite game of all time is Ultima VII. I also liked these computer role-playing games. So that was my childhood: a lot of video games, a lot of films as well, but I think video games was probably the most that I did.

Panu's Musical Journey

Christian: Yeah. Do you think the music in video games inspired you into the love of composing?

Panu: I'm sure, because they had some really, really nice scores, especially the adventure games. They had some really well-done music, and very interesting interactive music also. So there was a lot to love there. So yeah, for sure video games as well. But I'm sure film is the source of my biggest inspiration for music, because that's where, you know, that's John Williams and all that stuff. So I had to put that first, but definitely the video games are up there.

Christian: Yeah. Well, I don't know if you ever heard of the game WildStar. Have you ever heard of that?

Panu: I don't, I'm not sure.

Christian: Well, the composer for my film, The Girl Who Wore Freedom, is Jeff Kurtenacker, and he is a video game composer, and he's been doing that for a very long time, and he wanted to make this jump over into filmmaking himself. So you should take a listen to The Girl Who Wore Freedom score, because I'm incredibly proud of it. Jeff is an incredible composer. You guys need to have a conversation, for sure, because he's the same. He loved video games, and so he's doing a lot of video game composing, but also film scoring. So he would love to meet you, I'm sure. Now, I read that you started playing the cello at six.

Panu: Yeah.

Christian: Yes. Was that your first instrument?

Panu: Yeah, I would say I was playing around on the piano, because my mom actually did a degree in solo piano from the Sibelius Academy when she studied, and she became a music teacher later on. That was kind of her calling. So she's been a piano teacher all her life, and so we always had pianos and grand pianos around the house. So I just started sort of banging on those when I was three years old or something. I was trying to play the theme for MacGyver or something on the piano. So technically that's probably my first instrument, but cello was the one that I actually started to learn and have lessons with and stuff like that. My mom actually owned a cello as well. She always loved that instrument, and then she kind of introduced me to it, like, would you like to try to play this? So that's how I got into playing cello.

Christian: And so did you feel like you had a natural gift? Did you always think, ah, this is what I'm going to do when I grow up, I'm going to work in this field of music? How did it all develop?

Panu: Yeah, I mean, I always thought professionally I would be a computer programmer, because computers were my biggest hobby. Not just the video games, but just tinkering with computers. And I started programming when I was 12 years old or something. So that was a natural progression, like, I think this is going to be it, because that's the obvious choice. If you already know that kind of stuff, then it's much easier to get that gig than try to make it as a composer. So I never seriously thought I would be a professional composer, because it was just a fun thing, just another hobby. How can you just decide, I'm going to be a composer? That seems like a very, very tall order.

But yeah, the music stuff comes from a lot of things. It kind of runs in the family, and there's a lot of musicians in the family. But then also, again, the computers were useful there, because I started finding music programs on the computers.

Christian: Yeah, I mean, it really kind of came together, because as you grew older, the music composing went from, you know, orchestras and all of that into more of a technical way of making music, and putting together the real instrumentation as well. Right? I mean, all of the...

Panu: Yeah, for sure. When I initially started doing my own music on the computer, I was trying to emulate electronic music artists, because I was listening to these British electronic bands like the Prodigy and the Chemical Brothers and stuff like this. And I tried to do that kind of music, and it didn't really connect with my cello playing. That was just a thing I was doing on the side. I was going to lessons and playing the classical repertoire there, but I never thought about doing that at the time. But it was film music that connected those worlds, because in the mid '90s I started listening more carefully to what Hans Zimmer was doing and stuff like this. And it's like, oh, you can use synthesizers and orchestra in the same place. So maybe my cello and the computer, they're not separate after all. So it kind of started to click at that point.

Christian: Interesting. So tell me about your journey, how it started from you growing up. Did you go to college? Did you go to music school? Tell me how it all happened. How did you go from playing your cello and video games into, now here you are, you have documentaries on Netflix, you've won all these major awards, and you're barely 15 years old. I just don't understand how that all happened so quickly.

Panu: Yeah. It was kind of just that in high school I got really, really into film music. I was buying all the CDs I could find of film scores, because I'd always had this great interest in film and music, but they were separate. Already in grade school I was sort of doing my own horror movies with friends, and it's like very, very crude. I would have a knife on a tree and some ketchup, but I would compose some horror music for that already. So I was already doing these things, but I didn't really connect it properly.

But then during high school, when I really got into film music, I was like, I really want to learn how to do this better. So that's why I applied to the Sibelius Academy, which doesn't have a film scoring department, but they had the music technology department, which I thought was the closest thing for film music, because you need that side so much. And then you can study orchestration and stuff like that on the side. So I got in, and that's kind of how I started studying those things.

From Hobby to Profession

Panu: And then I started looking for where I can actually study film scoring. So then I started looking at universities abroad, and when I came across USC I was like, oh, now I can actually recognize some names. There was Chris Young, and there were people I knew already as film composers. So I thought, I want to go there so I can learn from...

Christian: Now, were they professors that you knew?

Panu: No, I don't know actually what the official term is for how Chris is credited at USC, but I mean, he's obviously a very successful film composer. So whatever lessons I can get from him, I would just love to do that. And we had some really cool classes with Chris, and so it was kind of exactly what I hoped it would be. So I got that very practical knowledge from somebody who's deep into the big movies. And then there were a lot of other great teachers there. Jack Smalley was amazing, and a whole lot of others.

So that was actually the first time I worked with an orchestra, because it was so theory-based still when I was in the Sibelius Academy. I was studying scores, I was doing orchestrations, but I would just look at them with the orchestration teacher, and he would tell me, "Well, that won't sound too good." And I would be like, "Okay, great. I have no idea what I'm doing, because I'm not hearing the score. I'm just seeing it." So USC was the complete opposite, because I think it was pretty much the first day of class when they told us, here's a, I think it was a Ravel string quartet, arrange this for a full orchestra. We'll record it in two weeks, and you're conducting yourself.

Obviously, I'd never done that. So I just quickly started to learn the patterns and how you move your hand and stuff like that. But I think that's what I really needed at that point: just get deep into the whole crash course on all things orchestral and film scoring in general. And so it was very different from the pace before, but it was great. I really enjoyed that year.

Christian: Yeah. So it was a year?

Panu: Yeah. USC, I think, took a year, and then I worked for another year on LA-based projects, sort of just as an assistant. But then I got my first feature film, which was by the same director, Dome, who did Little Siberia. He actually directed my first feature. It came out in 2008, but we worked on it in 2007. So I got contacted by someone from the production company asking if I want to read the script and offer a demo, because they were looking at a few composers.

Christian: Now, were these composers in Finland, or were they in America?

Panu: I think they were Finnish composers, all of them. So maybe I got some sort of PR boost as well by being in LA. It was like, oh, that's cool, like he's...

Christian: And were you in Finland at the time?

Panu: No, I was in LA when I got the script. So I arranged a call with Dome at a time that worked for both of us, with the time difference, and just chatted about what he would like for the film. And I remember, because I kind of asked this question, which is kind of hard to answer sometimes, but he had a really good answer to the question of what is this movie really about? He used this Finnish phrase which basically translates to "to victory through adversity," or something like this. And I just started thinking, what does this sound like?

And I had just seen a sci-fi film called Gattaca, which has a Michael Nyman score with very minimalistic string arrangements, which have this very, very emotional quality. And I felt like that had some of that quality. So I started, ah, I probably should riff on that feeling somehow. So I started writing a demo based on just that feeling. It doesn't really sound that similar, but it was just a starting point of how I want the music to feel. And then Dome liked that and picked me for that.

But that really goes back to when I got into the Sibelius Academy. I told the head of department there that I would love to study film scoring specifically, and I was asking, can I get a composition teacher for that? And he said, well, who would you want to have? And I was like, can I have anybody? Well, you can ask, and if they say yes, we'll sign it on. So I called my Finnish film composer hero, [name unclear], who I already knew as someone who had written amazingly beautiful melodies and big orchestral scores. So I called him up and I said, "Hey, so can you teach me film music?" And he kind of became my mentor.

But what he immediately said is, go right away to the local film school and just offer to score all of their short films, whatever short films they have. Just offer to score all of them for free and just get the experience. And I think that was the most important advice I got, because not only did I learn so much just working with all those people, but it was those connections that happened on those short films that led me to get that first feature film.

Christian: Is that right? Is that right?

Panu: Yeah, because I think, as I heard it told to me, there were a couple of sound people on the crew of that feature film that knew me from before, and I think they had started talking to Dome, like, hey, we know this composer who was very good at writing under dialogue. This movie had a lot of dialogue and score combination. So that's how at least I remember it. It's been a while, so [inaudible], but that's basically the story that I think I heard about how they ended up talking to Dome about me.

So yeah, if I hadn't gotten that little advice of, go there, and if I had stayed in my lane just studying scores, and it's all really important to do that, but nobody's going to come to the music school and pick you out of there if you don't introduce yourself to the world. So that was such an important piece of advice. But also to learn to speak the language of directors. That was also so important.

And it's also a good way to get out of your head a bit, because at that point you'll have a lot of ideas of, I want to write this kind of film score and this kind of film score, and you kind of impose those on the projects you work on, and it leads to some problems, because the project maybe doesn't need your big orchestral moment. Actually, I remember this very sad short film where one of the people is dying of cancer. There's a moment with a couple, and I think the woman has already died of cancer at this point, and the man is walking the hospital corridor in slow motion and is about to find out.

And I did this really, because I was like, oh, a sad scene, I get to write a really big, lush string arrangement. Just make it really, really, really sad. And the director actually started laughing when he saw this, because it was obviously way, way, way too much. When you have that kind of a really serious subject matter, and already a scene that is soul-crushing, you really need to be careful with the music. You almost don't use music at all, but you might use a single note or just something. But I didn't have that experience, and also I didn't really see past my own wish to write that big, beautiful, Adagio for Strings type of thing.

But that's really important. It's a hard lesson, obviously. If you get laughed at when you try to be sad, it's a really tough pill to swallow, but so important to get those experiences in early on in school. You don't want that to happen on a professional project.

Christian: Yeah, for sure.

Panu: It hasn't happened, because I learned this very early: oh, you need to be very careful to check if the film is actually calling for what you're trying to write, or if it's something that you just have in your head. And I think it feels kind of like you get it out of your system after a while. After you've gotten to write a couple of big orchestral film scores, then you stop trying to put them in everything, because it's like, okay, I got to do that. Now I know I can do the small stuff as well.

Navigating Directorial Styles

Christian: Well, it's interesting. Talking about volunteering your services for all of these student projects, you must have worked with lots of different directors, and each person must be different to work with. I know that I only have one experience so far, working with Jeff Kurtenacker, like I talked about. And I know that we had to figure out, I had to learn how to talk to a composer, and he had his own way of working. So you must have had to learn a lot about how to work with different directors. What was that like?

Panu: Yeah, there were definitely many different styles of directing at that point. And it's also that when you're working on student films, the directors are often very, very anxious about everything. Everybody is really anxious. So in some ways it's actually much tougher to work on those than it has been to work on professional films, where people kind of know how it's going to go, and nobody's freaking out all the time, at least usually. So those are really complicated to navigate in terms of the dynamics, how you almost need to be a therapist as well as a composer in some cases.

But yeah, I don't know if I can categorize the different directing styles. Obviously there are people who are more micromanagerial in some ways, and then there are people who are more relaxed about letting you... But I think on the student films, everything was very micromanaged, I felt. And then when you get into feature films, obviously just the length itself means that you cannot micromanage everything, so by nature it becomes more of your own thing.

But I think there were definitely some cases where some people tried to talk a lot about specific instruments, what they'd like to use. And that was really useful for me, to learn to... You know, I would never say, well, I don't want to use that. I'll just say, "Oh, cool. So what do you want to say with the oboe," or whatever. I would try to steer the conversation into, what do you want to achieve? What emotion do you want to evoke?

Christian: Yeah.

Panu: So then we can discuss, oh, okay, we can do that with the oboe. Hey, how about, do you want to do actually something else? Maybe I can do a harp thing. And so that gets the conversation going. So that was also one thing I learned: to speak the language that steers the conversation toward how the drama itself works and what the film is trying to say. And I think it's really useful to get out of the very specific technical terms. I mean, sometimes there's just a thing that the director really wants, and that's fine. But I usually try to find if I can somehow understand better where it's coming from, because then I'll be able to also do things around it that make sense, because it supports the same idea.

The Language of Music in Film

Christian: Right. Right. Right. Well, and I think it's important to understand, for people listening to this that are young directors or thinking about how to use music, what I learned. Truthfully, you don't realize, as someone that's appreciating watching movies, how important the score is to your film-watching experience, because it undergirds everything, and it really carries the emotion of the scene. And so when you are talking with a composer, truthfully, I do think it is important to say, this is what I want my audience to feel in this moment. This is what I'm trying to say with what these characters are doing. And I think I would trust you as a composer to know what instrument will create that tension, or evoke that feeling out of a human, you know?

Understanding Emotional Impact through Score

Panu: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Because I think that's also why, when you work with professional directors, they don't really like to use that language of talking about instruments, because they've noticed that they get some surprising results that they didn't think about when they do more general instructions. So I think it's natural; it just goes in that direction. But for sure, sometimes I don't even know what I'll use. I'll go and think about it, and I'll try to come up with something that surprises even me when I finally get it to work. So it's very good to keep an open mind, I think, in how you do those things, and not start from something unless there's a really specific reason. Otherwise it's very nice to experiment: how can you actually do that thing?

Christian: I love to hear you say that. It's the creative process. You don't even know in your mind. You know, you've got this script, and nobody's really giving you a lot of direction, but I can just imagine you going in there with your instruments, and you're thinking in your brain, with your own emotion, what this character might feel or what this moment might call for. And yes, something may surprise you even as your brain is trying to create something.

Creating Unique Soundscapes for Film

Panu: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think there are definitely good examples of this in the latest Netflix project I did, Little Siberia, because that basically started off as, we didn't even have any temp music. Dome, the director, said he had listened to a lot of things, but on this particular project he felt like there was nothing existing that really fit the film. So we really needed to invent the language, and I just started trying out all kinds of...

The Role of Music as a Character

Christian: It is so different, the music in that film. Very, very different. And the way that you used it, it's more of a character in the film, I think.

Panu: Yeah, I would say. Yeah, it's not invisible, let's say.

Christian: A lot of times music, I think, is invisible, and it's meant for you kind of not to notice it. But I feel like this music was meant to be noticed in a way, because it clearly is making you feel, I don't know. It's just more part of the scene. Is that meant to be?

Panu: Yeah. I mean, it's because the music is also kind of providing the voice for the meteor, right? So we need to make the rock a character. So that's how I got it, then.

Christian: Yes. Yes, it is. It worked. It worked. You were a success. That's great. Yeah, it's a very quirky movie. You know, I will say it's challenging, because it is overdubbed, I will tell people. It is on Netflix. All you have to do is Google Little Siberia. It is different. It is a very different kind of movie. But in terms of just... It is a comedy slash thriller? How would you describe it?

Panu: Yeah, I guess we called it a crime comedy, so it's in that genre.

Christian: But there's also a faith element.

Panu: Yeah, it kind of has a very strong drama side to it as well. So it is definitely a mixture of different genres. I've tried to come up with a single genre for it, but I don't think I can. So I just have to have this list of multiple things.

Experimentation in Composition

Christian: Yeah. Well, it seems like you must have had fun scoring it, because the music is fun, it seems.

Panu: Yeah. Yeah. That was definitely this kind of experimentation trip. I just started trying to find instruments that worked somehow, because we didn't have any specific reference in mind. And I think the first one we landed on, I was playing some gamelan-type percussion loops, which obviously have nothing to do with Finnish folk music or anything, but it was like...

Christian: What instrument did you just mention?

Panu: Yeah, it's in gamelan music, which is in Indonesia. So it's a very different region where that kind of music is played, but they have these metallophone percussion instruments that have really interesting sounds. And for Dome, it kind of reminded him of icicles, and this takes place, obviously, in a very cold part of Finland.

Christian: Yes.

Panu: So we wanted something that brings the environment to life as well. And so that just somehow fit. And so I was like, "Oh, great. Now I at least have a percussion loop, and I need to start building the rest around this." And I really started thinking, what can I do out of that? And I tried to get the melody, if you will. It doesn't really have a melody, but the loop kind of had a melody. So I'm going to try to make this in different instruments, and I just started taking whatever I could out of that.

And it was actually really useful, because I started composing very early. I think the editor, Harri, started editing the film in the spring. The film came out at the start of this year, but it was spring of '24. So it was quite early when he started editing and I started writing music, because the idea was that the temp, the music that was going to be in the edit, was going to be all from me. So we wouldn't use any kind of outside temp score, because we wanted to really build the sound from scratch. So I was writing very early.

But we did a very Finnish-style summer vacation. Everybody went away for July. So at the start of July we were just like, I'll see you in August. But that was actually amazing, because I had worked on the film long enough that it had engaged my subconscious to really work on the film. So it's week two of my summer vacation when I suddenly have this realization: oh, I want this Finnish folk instrument, jouhikko, which is this very rudimentary string instrument which has a really interesting, raw and earthy sound. It just came out of nowhere. I hadn't even thought about the film, but I was like, I need to do that. And I started listening to some jouhikko music, and...

Christian: You have one of those lying around?

Panu: No, I called a friend who was a great player on that. So I didn't write on the instrument, but I wrote a melody for it with a sample of a kind of similar instrument, in that direction. I used the sample to write the melody the first day I came back from vacation, and that became the main theme. Because the whole beginning period, from the spring to July, we were doing all kinds of demos. I think I'd written over maybe one and a half hours of music already, all kinds of tests, and I still didn't have a main theme. I was like, I don't know, this is a really tough one to find a main theme for.

And it's literally the first day coming back from vacation, because my subconscious had solved the problem for me, and I just wrote it out, and I played it for Dome, like, that's it, let's go with that. So for me it really showed the importance of developing ideas early, because I really love it when your brain starts to work for you even when you don't notice it. So it really feels like the music is flowing out of you more easily at that point.

The Importance of Early Composition

Christian: That's really great. Now, did you read the script and that's when you started, or did you see the footage and that's when you started?

Panu: I did read the script. That was actually in summer of '23, so that was even before they were shooting the film. So we had a first meeting with Dome, and they were still sort of thinking, I think. He said, you're probably the only composer we're talking to, which is kind of stressful, like, oh, can I really screw this up now? But I read the script, and I called the movie a North Karelian Magnolia, because it really felt like you have this similar sense that there's some kind of metaphysical level, and random things happen and they're somehow connected, but they just happen to happen in eastern Finland. And he really liked that idea, that I saw the metaphysical level in that.

So that was always also part of the score: to try to build that other level in the music that's not immediately obvious in the scene-by-scene thing. And that was also something we often discussed, if I wrote something that was too much about the action. I think the original main title I wrote was still for a different edit. Now he's driving to this small town, but initially I think he was driving to the doctor during the main title. So the music that I wrote originally was more actiony, and you're just trying to get to the doctor. And Dome said, yeah, I can see you're playing that, but how about the bigger picture? What is the movie really about? And I was like, yeah, I'll do one more like that. And then we settled on this very different main title sequence as well.

So yeah, I'm trying to think, what was your original question? Because I get so sidetracked.

Christian: No, that's totally fine. Sidetracks are awesome. I asked you if you had seen the script or if you had seen the film, and I asked you at what point you began composing. Really, that's the question.

Panu: Yeah. Okay. So I think we were toying with ideas based on the script as well, but because it was so early, I didn't do much at that point. It was in the spring of '24, when they started having some dailies and stuff I could actually watch to get some kind of idea of what's happening, and then Harri, the editor, started putting some sequences together. That felt like the natural point to really start progressing the music a lot. So we definitely had discussions about the instrumentation and stuff like that, but we kind of waited until I had something to look at.

You know, sometimes it's nice to start with even the script. On the first feature that I did, that Dome also directed, in 2007, the music that I wrote based on the script is still in the film. So sometimes it works. But I think very often what happens, if you do music based on the script, it might just be wrong, because there's so many things you're still taking based on interpretation. But I do like to start early and sometimes even write based on the script, because that's time you can spend coming up with ideas that you can use in so many different ways. And you'll usually find, if it's a good idea, you can adapt it to whatever the film calls for. You just change the context completely and it suddenly works.

So I think I've become more of a fan of actually starting really early and just building this bank of ideas that you can draw from. Because it's really nice when you're in the middle of a scene and you're suddenly like, "Oh, I don't actually have a motif or melody for this thing, and I need it." Then you go look at all the things you hadn't used yet, and you're like, "Oh, that actually fits." And then you actually have an idea that is thought through, instead of trying to come up with something on the spot. Sometimes that works, but it's more chaotic, and sometimes it doesn't end up very good, and then you don't have time to do multiple passes at it, because you might be late into the project, and then you just have to go with that. So I really like to build a big bank of melodies and motifs, and maybe just different sounds, if it's that kind of score. It doesn't have to be a melodic score, but just whatever, and then I can draw from those.

Christian: I like working that way too. I work that way with Jeff, and I like not working with a temp score. So we did the same thing with Jeff. We asked Jeff to give us music from the very beginning and kind of develop a theme, and then we started editing with his music. And you know, he actually ended up liking it. I couldn't believe it. But yeah, it was a great way to work.

Navigating the Netflix Experience

Christian: Now, we have about 10 minutes left. There are so many questions I have left for you, so I'm going to just fire questions at you this time, and you've got to give me short answers. So what I want to know is, when did Netflix pick up this film, and what was that like? But you've got to be short.

Panu: Yeah. I mean, this was originally a Netflix project already, so we knew it from the get-go. So it was something that Netflix commissioned from...

Christian: Okay. So they bought it based on the script?

Panu: Yeah, I think they basically... Yeah, that's true.

Christian: Oh, wow. That's amazing. So what did it feel like to know that you were scoring a film that was a Netflix original? Were you so excited?

Panu: Yeah, I mean, that was really cool, because you know that it's going everywhere now. So it's very, very different, even though Finnish films usually don't go much outside Finland. So that was really cool.

The Significance of Documentaries in Career

Christian: Yeah. Well, congratulations on that. Now, let's talk a little bit about your documentaries. You told me just recently you've had some new interactions with them. So talk about them real quickly.

Panu: Yeah, those have been a really important part of my career. And Tale of the Sleeping Giants is still doing the rounds as a live concert. I was just yesterday at the rehearsal for the [orchestra name unclear], and they actually played a concert of the documentary today, live to picture. So that's been a great pleasure and honor, to just hear orchestras perform those live. Those have really been important moments, but it's been a while. Tale of a Forest came out in 2012.

Christian: Oh, wow. It's still going.

Panu: Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. The Sleeping Giants is 2022 or '21. It was kind of during COVID, so the years are kind of a mess. We finished the movie already in 2020, but it was kind of waiting for release. Maybe it came out partly in '21. But yeah, so we've been doing those for 10 years, and they're still shooting one more. I think it's coming out at Christmas '26, so we'll have one more in the Tale of series.

Christian: I didn't get a chance to watch these. Are they nature documentaries?

Panu: Yeah. Yeah, they are.

Christian: Okay. Okay. Fantastic. And where can we watch those?

Panu: I don't know if those are available everywhere, but I think if you look on streaming services, or Apple or something, I think in some countries you'll definitely have those. So I hope they're available in whatever...

Christian: Now, before we go, do you have any advice for aspiring composers, composers who want to work in the documentary film world or feature film world? You're very young, if you don't mind me saying, for having been as successful as I think you have been and done as much as you have done. So what advice do you have for young filmmakers who want to be just like you?

Panu: Well, I think I'll pass on the advice I got from mentors: go and find projects to score, whatever projects help you learn to talk to directors and work with directors, and also get your music out there. I think that's absolutely the most important skill. And that's the way to find more work: when your work speaks for itself, and also people get to know you and trust you as a collaborator. So if I had to give one piece of advice, that's it, for sure.

DocuView Deja View

Christian: That's awesome. All right. We always have a special segment on Documentary First. This segment is called DocuView Deja View, and in this segment we ask our guests for their favorite documentary. And I wonder if that has a favorite score in that documentary, probably. So did you bring one to share with us?

Panu: Yeah, I think it's hard to pick a favorite, but I would pick the movie Oceans, because the Bruno Coulais score on that was really influential for the Tale of series of feature films. When we were working on the first one, the director asked me to watch that as one reference, and it really made a big impression on me, how the music was very, very cinematic and also very expressive. It was just the kind of style that I really adopted for my own work with the nature stuff. So that's why I picked Oceans.

Advice for Aspiring Composers

Christian: Okay. It's a good one. All right. Now, do you have any other projects you want to tell us about, that you're working on, or that you are able to tell us about?

Panu: I guess the stuff that I'm working on right now is kind of hard to say. They usually don't want me to talk about it before. But I think I mentioned already that they're doing a new Tale of movie. So I think there is going to be a new nature film next year, with that kind of score. So I'm really looking forward to that.

Influential Scores and Future Projects

Christian: Okay. Do you ever play live? Do you ever have your music played live, or conduct an orchestra live?

Panu: Well, I don't conduct it myself at the concerts, but yeah, the nature films have all been played live to picture with an orchestra, but probably usually in Finland. Well, we're actually looking at having concerts abroad for Tale of the Sleeping Giants right now. So I don't have any places to announce yet, but we're definitely looking at getting some concerts abroad as well.

Christian: Now, I'm sure people could probably find out more or follow you by going somewhere. Where can people find out more information? Where would they go?

Panu: Yeah, I think my homepage, panuaaltio.com. That's the best way to start, and I'll try to keep that updated. I think I still need to add Little Siberia. I need to go add that really quick.

Christian: Well, and we will put that in our show notes, as well as the other things that we've talked about that you have worked on. It really has been a pleasure speaking with you, and I could talk to you for so much more time. I wish we did have a few more hours. We could talk to you about all the other things that you have worked on. You're fascinating, and clearly a talented individual, and so thank you for sharing your time with us today.

Panu: Thanks. It's been great talking to you.

Christian: Thank you so much. Yeah. All right, everybody, thank you so much for listening to Documentary First, where we believe everybody has a story to tell, and you can be the one to tell it. Bye, everybody.

Announcer: Follow Documentary First on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn. This podcast was produced by Documentary First, edited and mixed by Jason Hoban, with music by Jeff Kurtenacker.

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