Zahi Hawass Documentary: Making The Man with the Hat

Documentary First, Episode 269. Christian Taylor talks with Jeffrey Roth, director of The Man with the Hat, a documentary about Egyptologist Dr. Zahi Hawass. 75 minutes. Released January 15, 2026.

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How do you make a film about world-renowned Egyptologist Zahi Hawass, with no narrator, no talking heads and sometimes just an hour at a site?

That was the job Jeffrey Roth took on in The Man with the Hat, his independent documentary about Dr. Zahi Hawass, distributed by Virgil Films. Jeffrey had already made The Wonder of It All, about the Apollo astronauts, and 41, his HBO portrait of President George H.W. Bush. Every one of his films lets a living person tell their own story. With Zahi, that meant following a man who never stops moving, across Egypt, with a small crew and his own money.

In Episode 269 of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor talks with Jeffrey about how it started: one email through a website, a reply within an hour, and a meeting in Salt Lake City a week later, in December 2022. Within 10 minutes Zahi had Jeffrey's pad of paper and was mapping out the shoot. He wanted Jeffrey in Egypt in February. Jeffrey walks through what that took: a fixer, a letter to the Egyptian embassy in Washington, a serial number for every piece of gear, and permits that sometimes gave the crew one hour at a place they'd never seen. "You want to make movies, you want to do things, but then you realize over there, no, this is real," he says.

The best moments weren't planned. On the first shoot, at Saqqara, a local man pointed down and said "mummies," and the crew found five of them lying in the dirt. Jeffrey had the photo blown up for Zahi, who asked for a copy, and it was finally handed over in Egypt on the day Zahi's granddaughter happened to be there. The crew was also filming about 140 miles from Gaza on October 7, 2023. Then Jeffrey tells the story behind 41: three years, on and off, with President Bush, a White House that allowed one camera and no audio, and a gift he has worn only once.

In this episode, you'll learn

• How one email led to a documentary with Zahi Hawass
• Why Jeffrey funds his films himself, and the trade-off that comes with it
• What it takes to get permission to film in Egypt
• How a fixer works, and why Jeffrey thought 15% was fair
• How to direct someone who has told his stories thousands of times
• Why Jeffrey left out every interview Zahi asked him to film
• How five mummies at Saqqara became one of the film's best scenes
• What it was like filming in Egypt on October 7, 2023
• How a screening of The Wonder of It All led to 41 with George H.W. Bush
• How success for a documentary moved from theaters to HBO to streaming

Questions and answers

Who made The Man with the Hat, the Zahi Hawass documentary?

Jeffrey Roth directed The Man with the Hat, and Virgil Films distributes it. Jeffrey says he reached Dr. Zahi Hawass by emailing him through a website, heard back within an hour, and met him in Salt Lake City in December 2022. The film has no narrator and no talking heads. Zahi tells his own story, the style Jeffrey uses in all his films.

How do you get permission to film a documentary in Egypt?

Jeffrey Roth says you start with a fixer, because you can't just show up and ask to shoot. Then you write to the Egyptian embassy in Washington, DC, which forwards the request to the ministries in Egypt. He was advised to bring a small crew, hire locally and bring little gear, since every piece of equipment needs a serial number on record. Some permits allowed only an hour at a site, with no chance to scout it first.

How much does a fixer cost for filming in Egypt?

Jeffrey Roth didn't give a total, but he explained the deal. The fixer handled visas, transportation, hotels, permits, crew and vehicles, and added about 15% on top of what everything else cost. Most costs in Egypt were flat day rates, not hourly. Jeffrey says he thought the fee was fair and never felt overcharged.

What is it like to direct Zahi Hawass?

Jeffrey Roth says Zahi is "like the Energizer Bunny." He was 76 or 77 during the shoot, Jeffrey says, and would fly from Cairo to Luxor and back in a day, then start again at five the next morning. Jeffrey gave him his space, then guided him away from stories he has told thousands of times. Zahi's hat, Jeffrey says, is "like a Superman cape."

Did Zahi Hawass like The Man with the Hat?

Jeffrey Roth says Zahi watched it in a theater with 30 or 40 people and said little. Everywhere they went, Zahi had asked the crew to interview other people about him, and Jeffrey left all of it out. After the screening Zahi told him, "Jeff, you didn't use any of the interviews." Jeffrey asked if he missed them. Zahi said no.

How did Jeffrey Roth get access to George H.W. Bush for 41?

After a screening of The Wonder of It All at the Bush library, Jeffrey was invited to Walker's Point in Kennebunkport and asked the chief of staff if the former president might be interested. She told him to write something. When he landed back from a trip to Australia, an email said Bush was "intrigued." Six weeks later they were shooting.

Where can I watch The Man with the Hat?

The film's site, zahifilm.com, lists Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, Fandango at Home, Google Play and Vimeo On Demand.

Chapters

Times match the YouTube video.

• 0:00 Jeffrey Roth on The Man with the Hat
• 3:45 Letting the Subject Tell It
• 7:10 Why He Pays His Own Way
• 9:30 How Do You Film in Egypt?
• 16:18 A Father's Words and Critics
• 21:45 Bringing Egypt's Treasures Home
• 28:47 What Does a Fixer Cost?
• 36:45 Five Mummies and a Photograph
• 41:54 Three Years With George H.W. Bush
• 47:18 Leaving Politics Out
• 57:35 Selling an Independent Documentary
• 1:12:30 DocuView Deja View Pick

Watch the film

The Man with the Hat is available on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, Fandango at Home, Google Play and Vimeo On Demand. All the links are on zahifilm.com. Watch the official trailer. Jeffrey's 41 streams on HBO Max.

DocuView Deja View pick: Jeffrey recommends The Kid Stays in the Picture (2002), Nanette Burstein and Brett Morgen's film about Hollywood producer Robert Evans, told in his own voice. Jeffrey says the way it used photographs and film tools has stayed with him for 23 years. See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

About the guest

Jeffrey Roth is a director and executive producer. His first feature, The Wonder of It All, is an award-winning documentary about the Apollo astronauts, with Buzz Aldrin, Alan Bean, Edgar Mitchell, John Young, Charlie Duke, Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmitt. He went on to make 41 for HBO (2012), a personal portrait of President George H.W. Bush, executive produced by Jerry Weintraub. His CNN Film President in Waiting (2020) brings together Presidents Barack Obama, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter and Vice Presidents Joe Biden, Mike Pence, Dick Cheney, Al Gore, Dan Quayle and Walter Mondale to tell how the vice presidency grew into one of the most powerful offices in the world. The Man with the Hat follows Dr. Zahi Hawass to ancient sites and new discoveries across Egypt. His films: playground-docs.com

Related conversations

Joe Amodei runs Virgil Films, which distributes The Man with the Hat. Hear him talk about directing his own first documentary in Cold War in Philly: Joe Amodei Directs His First Documentary. Jeffrey says Ken Burns tries to let people do the talking even though they're not alive. Hear Ken on how he does it in Ken Burns: Making the Past Come Alive, The American Buffalo.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Follow the show | Support on Patreon

This episode is sponsored by Virgil Films Entertainment. Learn more at virgilfilms.com.

Full transcript

Christian: everybody. Welcome to documentary first, where we have an inside look at documentary filmmaking. I'm your host, Christian Taylor and a documentary filmmaker myself. I'm sitting down with storytellers who capture real life stories one frame at a time so that we can become better filmmakers. Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by Jeffrey Ross. He's a director and he is coming here to talk to us about his debut feature. It's coming up, A Man with the Hat being distributed by Virgil Films, our very own sponsor, as well as my distributor, Amazing People, over there at Virgil Films. His first debut feature, The Wonder of It All, is an award-winning, critically acclaimed documentary that captures the human side of the Apollo astronauts. He went on to direct 41 for HBO, an intermittent three-year portrait of President George H.W. Bush, executive produced by Jerry Weintraub. His CNN film, President and Waiting, brings together every living president and vice president to explore how the vice presidency evolved from a ceremonial role into one of the most powerful offices in the world. Jeffrey's latest project, The Man with the Hat, is a cinematic journey with the world's famous Egyptologist, Dr. Zahaie Howe. How do you say his name? Zahaie?

Jeffrey Roth: Zahi, Zahi, Zahi Hawas.

Christian: Zahi Hawass. Zahi Hawass, taking us back 4,000 years into tombs, tombs and temples and never before seen discoveries in Egypt. Jeffrey, welcome to Documentary First.

Jeffrey Roth: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Christian: So you asked me if I had seen the movie last night and I was very reserved because I didn't really want to tell you and I didn't really want to say what I thought. But yes, I did see it. I was incredibly impressed. It was beautifully, cinematically shot. It was very moving. It was unusual because, and this is what I want to talk about. It was completely character driven by Dr. Hawass. No narration. really, it was just no talking heads. It was completely character driven as, mean, he's a big character so he can carry that, you know, a film. And to me, it seemed like it must have been something incredibly challenging to film. And I have so many questions about how you were able to pull that off. I can't imagine. You have this huge studio that's backing you and all of these, you know, things at your disposal. So tell me how in the world you were able to pull off this unbelievable magic.

Jeffrey Roth: Okay, so where to start? as you've kind of alluded to, it's basically Zahi telling his own story. And that's the style that I like to do as a filmmaker. And if you look at any of my movies, it's always the living person. And so when I was trying to figure out what to do next, you know, go through the names and you kind of sit with things for a while and then it's like, okay, well, two days later, Maybe didn't sound so good. you you go through that kind of a journey and then it's like, once you land on something, you gotta find them. See if they're interested, because if they're not interested in telling their story, then it's over. So... ⁓

Christian: Well, and let me stop you right there for a second. So what you're saying is as a filmmaker, and I was gonna ask you this later because the other thing I wanted to tell you is after I watched that, I was like, let me look for about 20 minutes at 41. Because it was late, like it was about, I think 10 o'clock when I finished and I was like, I'm tired. But let me look at 20 minutes at 41. I couldn't just look at 20 minutes. I watched the whole 110 and I got super sucked in. really loved it. And then I was gonna watch the other ones and I was like, I can't, I gotta go to bed. But what I did notice was that theme of you picking individual people and letting them tell their story. So that is something you've decided to be your way of telling stories and you go and just. look for individuals that you're interested in, you ask them if they want to tell your story, and then you develop a relationship like a writer does with a book, a biographer kind of thing, and you make that relationship. Is that what you do?

Jeffrey Roth: ⁓ sort of, but you also go with whatever, however they want to handle it. Right. So, so when you look at the astronaut movie or the vice president one, I was dealing with multiple people there. And sometimes, you know, especially with presidents or vice presidents, you're dealing with their schedules. So you don't have time to work really with anybody. You got to do it all kind of yourself. You show up, you do it and off you go. with Dr. Hawass, you know, I just kind of emailed him through a website because, you know, he's in Egypt. Like, OK, how do I find this guy? And then you think like, OK, you know, how do you get through the layers of people to get to the person? So you very simply send an email out that said, hey, you know, I'm kind of interested in doing a documentary. Please put me in touch with the right people. And like within an hour, I got an email right back from him, said basically, meet me in Salt Lake City next week. OK. So, so, you a week later, and this was mid December in 22. And meet him at a hotel and within 10 minutes, ⁓ he says, give me your pad of paper. He's like, okay, we're going to go here, here, here and here. And this is what you need to do. And you're going to come to Egypt in February. And, know, now I'm thinking, okay, well, you know, here we are almost the end of December. And he's basically telling me to be there in February because you got to work around his schedule. And then that's where the problems started. Because once you go off that cliff, it's a... It's a challenge, but it's a fascinating challenge, right? And you do it because...

Christian: Well, how did you have the money when somebody says, okay, you're gonna start shooting in February? I mean, how did you have time to raise the money to start shooting?

Jeffrey Roth: Well, we generally do the funding ourselves, being independent. ⁓ For me, to go through the route of trying to find people to, you know, whether to sell it to a studio or a network or whether to go for funding, like I it's a long process and that's something that I didn't want to do. And also what I kind of like about this being low budget. but also doing it on your own is that you don't have anybody over your shoulder telling you what to do. And so there's a satisfaction, of course, with that. so whenever I do a talk or anything, I just say, listen, I don't care if you like the movie or not, right? Just appreciate what we did with a very small crew, very small amount of money, and we're able to produce something like this. So yeah, so that when he... He basically says, yeah, in Egypt in February, we could. So I wasn't scrambling for that. You're more or less scrambling to get all of your, find the fixer. You got to find ⁓ everything, the crew over there. And then you very quickly learn what you can and can't do.

Christian: paperwork. All right, so do you mind me asking what your budget was? Did you set up a budget beforehand? Did you have the whole movie planned out? Or did you think, okay, I'm gonna do this as it goes, one thing at a time? mean, clearly, you went to all the big places where the tombs were, all the cities, plus you went to where he grew up. And so you definitely had all these different locations. They were at different times. So you had several trips over there to Egypt. I saw either you went after COVID, but still there were masks being worn. there was still some fears there. And then I'm sure if you're working hiring local crew, you've got permissions for things. There's paperwork and governmental red tape. It's expensive to get. equipment, if you're not flying it over there? I mean, what did you decide to do about all of that? It's a lot of questions I just grew at you.

Jeffrey Roth: Okay. Right. Right. Right. So let me, let me try to go backwards on those. ⁓ so the first thing you have to do is you have to get your fixer. You cannot just show up at Egypt's door and say, I want to shoot a movie. They won't look at you, talk to you. You got to start with that. And then from that, the first step that you do is you have to write a letter to the Egyptian embassy in Washington, DC, who then forward your request on into Egypt to the ministries. While you're doing that and waiting for those permissions to come through, you're trying to figure out locations. Where are things? How far is it from this place to that place? So can figure out your days. And then once you get all that, they tell you, I should say they advise you, you don't bring a lot of crew, hire local, and don't bring a lot of gear. Because the one thing that they do do, or make you do, is to ⁓ provide a serial number for every piece of equipment that you bring into the country. you know, and then it's like, okay, fine, but do you guys have gear that matches up with what we have or that we want to use? And then you find that their names of what they call things are different. Their film language is different. And then like, you can't just go interview crew. Right? They just kind of, again, everything is through the fixer and so they just show up. And then you got to worry about the language barrier. And even if they do speak English, you know, sometimes the accents get in the way, whether it's me talking or them talking. And also when you've got a finite time to shoot, because a lot of times they will give you permissions, but it may be only for an hour if they got to open up something special for you. So now you show up and you've got to go, okay. No matter what you want to plan, if you've never been to a place before, you got to figure all that out within an hour.

Christian: Right, because you weren't able to scout.

Jeffrey Roth: Correct. Correct. So, you gotta...

Christian: And you were going into tombs. I mean, the things that I thought were nuts is that he was going down into, you know, tunnels or they're not tunnels. They're what are they shafts down into the tombs to see a sarcophagus open for the first time. And you guys were in there seeing what he was seeing for the first time. I mean,

Jeffrey Roth: shafts or tombs or

Christian: How amazing.

Jeffrey Roth: ⁓ It's I mean literally is mind-blowing because You know you you want to make movies you want to do things, but then you realize over there No, this is real. I mean and you're in places that you never thought you would be Let alone rolling cameras or calling action or whatever you're doing. I mean

Christian: Well, and that's what I was so amazed about your film because I have always loved Egypt history, right? And archeology. I actually took some classes in that in college. And going to museum is one thing, but when you're in a museum and you're seeing all this stuff, I've always wondered what it was like at those first discoveries when they first found them or when they opened the tomb or. What's it like in there? And you want to peer it just like he does. mean, he wants to be at every one that's first open. You can tell they don't open it until they call him. I know it. And so you can see them like, okay, we found this stop. have to, you know, we have to call Dr. Hawass. So, so for you to have that kind of access, that was crazy. And you had at least two of those. Did you have more? Two made it into the film.

Jeffrey Roth: ⁓ I would say we've, we had to, and we have some really small things that, you know, we don't call out that their first discoveries or never before seen or whatever you want to say, because it was, we wanted more of the beauty to stand out. Right. And, and sometimes just because they make a discovery doesn't necessarily mean it's going to make it to the public because historically it may not be, a big deal, but

Christian: No, but it's a big deal. What I think is what he's doing now is he's capturing their own history for them. It's not like it's, look, this is the richest king ever. It's that there's still so much of civilization that's lying under their feet and they're careful about their ancestors and their history and they're wanting to discover it and they care about the simple man. I mean, there was a family that they uncovered. One of the powerful moments in the film. I loved this. I loved how you showed this family that they uncovered and how they were gently uncovering these mummies that were lying just open in the dirt and how he went to see them and then said, don't dig them up, cover them up. That was so tender. And you guys had taken a picture and put it over a canvas. and showed it to him and he cherished it. And he said he didn't have anything like that. And then he loved it and wanted it. And then I think shortly after that, you cut to him playing with his granddaughter and his granddaughter's hat. And oh my goodness, that scene was just so precious. And how much that relationship you could see, you know, just them playing together. And it was just so... You could see how much he loved his people and he cherished what he was doing. And it did demonstrate, you you showed in the letters and I liked that you did this. There was always talk about how he was, there were people trying to tear him down and to show how what he was doing was for show or he was corrupt. I've heard all those stories, but he's continued to press on and persevere and be this larger than life figure. And I liked it that you ⁓ did show him those quotes and give him an opportunity to respond. And what you also did though was, and this is what I tried to do in my own life, you can say your words about what you believe and who you think you are. But in a sense, that doesn't matter. What matters is how you live. And what I think you demonstrated was how he lived, right? You showed it in that interaction with his granddaughter. You showed it as he would walk through the city and anywhere he was and stop with the people and take pictures with them or shake their hands. Always, whether he was eating or whether he was going into his home, you could see the patience and how he realized that he represented something bigger than himself and he cared about that. So he lived what he said he believed. And when you opened with talking about his father, I was already in tears from the opening just because... I can't believe I'm getting emotional. You could tell how impactful his father's words were to him and how he took those to heart. think his father died when he was 13. So his father, when he was a young boy, implanted those words in him and it set him on a course for the rest of his life that has changed the history of Egypt. And he gives his father who died when he was 13, complete credit for who he is. It was remarkable to me, you know, and I think as parents, we would all want to have that kind of influence on our kids, you know? And so, um, I loved that you opened with that moment because like I said, I think his life demonstrated that he was living what he said he believed. Um, And as you can tell, I really felt like that was a lot of the beauty of your movie. It started off very powerfully for me and it was the beauty of the landscape and the music, the score amplified that. And then just his storytelling of how much he cared about what he was doing. You guys were able to really demonstrate that through the story. And I can imagine in the editing, that must have been hard for you to figure out that story part.

Jeffrey Roth: yes, and I'll say this, look, I can relate with him more than you probably know because I lost my parents when I was 18. So you're going to get me going, but, ⁓

Christian: Did you? I just lost my mother, so I think that's why I'm emotional as well. It's a very tough thing. I don't think it matters how old you are.

Jeffrey Roth: No, that's for sure. But I felt that... Zahi is... As you've seen and you've kind of mentioned and alluded to. He's, they don't come any bigger than him from Egypt, right? And people want to tear him down. I think anybody in any profession that gets to a certain elevation in your career, that's the name of the game is to bring you down. So very early on in the movie, which obviously you saw, that was our way of letting you understand that this movie is going to be different. We do open with obviously shots of ancient Egypt and get there. But we also make a complete turn where he does talk about his influence and that theme does come throughout the movie.

Christian: Yeah. Well, and you can tell that he doesn't care about his influence for his influence sake. What he cares about is what his influence hopefully is doing for Egypt's sake. And that's a very different thing. know, I think he says at some point he wanted to be an actor when he was younger.

Jeffrey Roth: ⁓

Christian: Um, and it's funny how he talks about his tribulations all throughout his life and continue, you know, including being a bad student and wanting to go in different directions and not succeeding in any of those ways and not even wanting to go into archeology and just keep, you know, getting forced into this way by life. um, and at any rate, finding his calling found him and he has grown into where he is and those desires and things that he wanted to be all came together to serve Egypt. even like you said, once you get to that certain level, anywhere people begin to turn you down, tear you down. But he said, even through that, tribulation, you know, he, said, I'm trying to remember what was so powerful. it was something like, shoot. It escaped my mind. One thing he said was that, you know, it, it, it was that just, he, he had to go through that, and continue on and not let any of that tear him down or stop him. Or he knew that you can't judge a book by its cover. That was it. That it was wrong. to believe something about a person before you knew them. And he was so certain in who he was. His identity in himself and who he was was so strong. He knew he wasn't corrupt. He knew he wasn't doing things wrong. And so it did not matter what people said about him. He was going to just soldier on, right?

Jeffrey Roth: Right, and ⁓ look, a few things are, A, he's a character. He has separated himself from the pack. He definitely has an ego, ⁓ as most people do. But I think, yes, there is that soft side of him which is very difficult to get out, but you do hear it in him in the movie where he is talking about He wants to educate the kids. He wants to do it for the Egyptian people. He wants the Egyptian people to be proud of their history because throughout time other people have come into Egypt to take things out of Egypt.

Christian: And I tell you, you made me mad by the time you got to the place where I realized where you explained this was really good that you did this or he did this, how France had cut Napoleon had come in there and drawn everything, which was good, but then took the things out of Egypt. And then you showed me the, forget what the place is. where the obelisk is missing.

Jeffrey Roth: ⁓ Luxor temple.

Christian: Luxor temple and I really didn't understand except that I've been to Paris. I didn't know what that was. But now I know where it is and I remember it being there and now I see where it's missing and I see from the faraway vantage that you showed me. It feels like it was raped and it belongs there. It's horrible that it's not there because there's a it's a pair. It's part of a pair. And now the opening of that looks terrible. And I can see where he's upset and he wants his things returned. So that made me angry.

Jeffrey Roth: I think it was, yeah, and I think if you really dig into it, I make no pun intended there, but I believe the number is Italy, I believe has nine of them. And there's other countries that have more and they're not reproductions, they came from Egypt. And so he is trying to get some things back. He does feel that there is a place for all museums around the world to have these artifacts so people can go see and learn. But the bigger ones is the ones that he would like to see back in his...

Christian: Yeah, and I think there reasons for this where they're missing and they should be there. They could also be loaned out and travel around like the Cleopatra or whatever, but there are things that should be in Egypt that were taken wrongly and he has reasons for that and they make sense. You you talked about him being a character in larger than life and I'm wondering when you select a character like that, is it difficult to work with them and what challenges does that present?

Jeffrey Roth: Let's just say he is, you could be there showing up on site for the first time with him. He could be in the car ahead of you. You show up, you've got your crew, you got the vans, you got the gear, you got everything you need. You don't even have two feet out of the car and he's looking at you like, you're ready to shoot? It's like, we just got here with you. You know, we'd like to work around for a moment here. So there's that. just, you have to hang on with him because, I think when we shot, was 76, 77. And he is like the Energizer Bunny. He just goes and goes. And then that's part of the thing, like in the movie, like he's always moving in the movie, right? And we wanted to show that he's everywhere. But that is a true thing. He will get up in the morning, get on a flight, fly down to Luxor from Cairo, do his things down there.

Christian: I that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeffrey Roth: meet tour groups and things like that. And then that night he's on a flight back home at 11. Next day in the morning at five, he's up again. Now he's in Cairo somewhere dealing with other people. And it just repeats and repeats and repeats. This past summer, he was on a tour here in the United States. He did 32 cities in 60 days for an hour and a half lecture. And he's bringing in about two, 3000 people a night. And ⁓ He just goes. But, ⁓ and you kind of got to hang on. But yes, but... To deal with him from a directing point of view, you have to give him his space and do what he wants to do. And I'm not saying this is not a bad thing at all, because I do this in anybody that I've dealt with. But then you try to figure out how to get what is it that you're looking for, right? He knows and he has things in his head that he has said thousands of times when you show up at a site. When he says that, it's like, okay, and sometimes that could be good, sometimes not. And then sometimes you got to go, okay, now what about this? Because now I got to guide him into what I'm looking for. And he doesn't know necessarily because how can you, how can anybody until you see it at the end, right? Sometimes we're guessing too, until we get into the edit room to see what works or what doesn't work. So, but he's definitely a fun guy to deal with.

Christian: Yeah. I found that out with veterans, you know, who are 102, you know, they have told their story so many times. They are in this mode of telling their story. If you have other questions or you want to learn other things, they have to stop and think about that. That takes a different part of their brain and a different track usually, and they're not accustomed to that. And so it does take them time and you're asking them for a different skillset really. ⁓ and so yeah, I've experienced that it's a different thing for them to do. It takes a bit.

Jeffrey Roth: But I think sometimes that's also good to show, especially if it's on camera that you put in your film, because it lets the audience know that they are thinking about it. That it is a moment of maybe just quiet, but they're formulating something that is just different to them. And I like that from my point.

Christian: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I like that too. And I like that you did ask him, you know, you did ask him questions that you would not hear in any talk that he went to, which, you know, developed more who he was as a person and what motivated him to do what he does. And like you said, at the end, the images of the children with him with the children, he's just so tender. And you can see how he cares about the future of Egypt and carrying on those legacies. If he doesn't find people that care about it as passionately as he does, it will not carry on. And he knows that. So I think that was great to show. What were some other difficulties and challenges? I did the fixer was, I know it was important for finding crew or equipment and ⁓ What else did the fixer do that was so critical and was it as helpful as you had hoped?

Jeffrey Roth: Well, I mean, it's everything from the moment that you arrive in Egypt to getting your visa, to giving you the transportation to the hotels, from getting you from point A to point B, having all the permits ready to go, having the crew, their vehicles, getting them to their hotels. I mean, really anything here that we would do, but they do it all. And that kind of...

Christian: And how much did that cost? How much does a fixer cost?

Jeffrey Roth: ⁓ I mean, I'll say this, to put a number on it can be a little difficult in the sense that, ⁓ you know, don't generally like to give out the numbers per se, but everything was pretty much fair. And I'll say it this way. Whereas, whatever you were going to pay crew hotel, this, that, the other, they just, I think tacked on basically a 15%. And that was their fee. So, so. you know, for basically 15%, you're getting the logistics done, even though you'd still have to pay hotel if you show up, right? So I thought that that was fair. I never thought anything that we were charged was out of line. ⁓

Christian: So they didn't get paid by the hour or they weren't paid by in a lump sum. They were paid percentage based on what you paid other people.

Jeffrey Roth: or things, you know, whether they would bring lunch in, right? So let's just say the bill for lunch was, you know, don't know, 300 bucks, 15 % on top of that. But they were more, I'd say everything over there worked more on flats. Nobody was really by the hour. It was either by the day or like the car service was by day, wasn't by, you know, okay, if you only take four hours of charge of this, eight.

Christian: I see. ⁓

Jeffrey Roth: charge you that. So everything was reasonable. ⁓

Christian: And do you have a budget that you know that you've spent on this film?

Jeffrey Roth: I do, but I prefer not to. I prefer not to only because then, you know, if anybody was ever looking to figure out what we spent in order to try to make a deal with me, and I mean more of like some kind of a streamer, a second deal somewhere down the line, they use that against you. So I don't want to go there. It's not that I don't want to say it's just, I'm just trying to protect.

Christian: Can you share? Arrange? Okay. I see. Sure.

Jeffrey Roth: what we have.

Christian: No, I understand. understand. Yeah. Well, some people feel that way. Sure.

Jeffrey Roth: You know, the goal also is that, you know, look, and I'm just saying that it's not a lot of money in the scheme of things, right? We don't have that. And so we have to fit within a budget. And we also have to make the movie look like we spent a lot more than what we spent, right? And so I think I would, know, visually, I would put this movie up against any documentary of Egypt. And most people that do films in Egypt are

Christian: Right. Right. For sure. Yeah, I would agree.

Jeffrey Roth: the streamers or the networks or anxiety.

Christian: Yeah, I could see this on any travel channel. I could see it on the history channel and I could see it fit right there. Absolutely.

Jeffrey Roth: Yeah, and Zahi has always been the guy, you know, if you know of Zahi, he's the guy that always took you from the studio side of things to the antiquity side of things. He was always a little middle man, right? Because of his character, the showmanship and all that stuff. So we were just trying to do something a little different and present him along with the antiquities and make it more of a film than a TV show.

Christian: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Well, has he seen the finished product? and what was his thought?

Jeffrey Roth: Um, he's a man of few words, but I'll say that I do. You've seen them in the movie. So, you know, he's got no problem telling you what he thinks about anything. So I knew the, the, the one good news is that when he saw it, we were kind of with a, uh, maybe 30 or 40 people in the theater. And I knew if he was going to take me out, it wasn't going to be in that moment. Cause there's other people around. Right. So he was going to be respectful, but it was in.

Christian: Really? I can't imagine that\! Right.

Jeffrey Roth: when I was driving with him the next day for about an hour. thought, okay, he's gonna do it now. But he didn't. And along the way, he had us, now you, if I can go back to the point where you're saying that it's about him and I don't bring in other people. And I kept telling him, from the moment that I met him to the moment that we were shooting that I want this to be about you in your words and things like that. Yet everywhere we would go, he would say, okay, interview this person about me. Interview this person. And so out of respect, we did. And when we got in the editing, of course, you know, we didn't use it. And the first thing he said to me after the screening is he comes up to me and he says, Jeff, you didn't use any of the interviews. And I said, did you miss them? And he said, no. And he left me alone because I knew what I was trying to do. Right. And I think it was different for him. for somebody to say that, because he's used to things with other people. so I was just trying to get...

Christian: I think it's actually, my guess is it might have been, it's always better to hear what other people are saying about us than hearing what we say about ourselves. You know, and maybe there was an element of that, that he would rather see a movie where other people are talking about him than him talking about himself. It's probably a little bit uncomfortable.

Jeffrey Roth: It is, but he's used to that. And I've had people that have seen it, that have known him, worked with him 30 years, 40 years, and they didn't know he had a granddaughter. They didn't know the names of his kids. They didn't know his wife. And so when they see this, they're like, my God, you know, to see him in a tender moment from somebody that's known him for 30 or 40 years as the guy that you probably assume that he is.

Christian: Really?

Jeffrey Roth: It was a little different for these people to see him in that light.

Christian: Yeah, yeah, I love seeing the pictures of his family and hearing all of that background and about school. And it was just really nice. Yeah.

Jeffrey Roth: And it's hard to find pictures from Egypt from the 1940s and 50s. They didn't save a lot of things.

Christian: Yeah, yeah, I bet. I wanna move on to lessons for documentary filmmakers who might be tempted to just use one person like that, or they might be tempted to use a voiceover, a guiding voiceover. What did you learn leaning so heavily on one character?

Jeffrey Roth: ⁓ okay. So you obviously have to have a way that you're going to ask your questions and what you're going to cut to, to formulate the story because you do have only one voice. And so there's really no, when I mean cut away, I mean to another voice, right? You can cut away to a different, ⁓ like a transition or something different, but, but it all goes to the questions. It all goes, in all reality, goes to his answers too. ⁓

Christian: And I have a perfect example. Let me see if this is what you're talking about. He's talking about something about where he almost was bit by a cobra and you bring out Abbot or Costello, which one is he? And he's playing, he's playing the little flute thingy that you would play in Egypt where the cobra comes up out of the basket and he can't see it. And then he puts,

Jeffrey Roth: You're in trouble.

Christian: He stops playing, puts his hat on the basket, plays again, and he sees the hat come up, and then he sees the cobra, and then he runs away. And that's exactly what, you know, Zahi was talking about how he stood real still because cobras are blind and they can't see. And then when he went back down, he ran away, right?

Jeffrey Roth: Right. then, because also, how do you take that story, tell it by itself and make it entertaining? Right. So you try to expand it. You try to put things in because you're doing storytelling and, and, and not making a PowerPoint presentation. So if I could also give you one other way for us, which was not so much the words, but what happened that you can never plan on, which is if you go to that photo that you saw the five mummies. So the first shot, or first shoot that we did, we were not even supposed to see that, be anywhere near that. So we were shooting in Saqqara and somebody, local person comes up and points down there and says, ⁓ mummies. Mummies where? Of course we're like where? And they said, no down there. And we're looking, we're looking, we don't see them. So I finally went to the guy that was with us and I said, can we go down there? And I said, listen, I promise I won't bring the cameras. We're just curious. And he says, sure. So we go down and sure enough, there they were, the five mummies, right? And then somebody said, do you want to bring cameras down? I said, yes. So we go down and we do that scene. But meanwhile, we take the photo. now Zahi comes to LA a couple months later and we do the main interview with him to sit down. And I blew that up to take to that interview to show him and piece this kind of together. And what you see in there when he says, did you take this? Send me a copy because I don't have one. That was a real moment. And we did. make a copy for him. So he was back a couple months later and I am here in LA and said, here enjoy it. He says, no, no, I can't take it. Bring it with you when you come to Egypt. Cause we were going back for the second trip in October. And I said, okay, okay. I don't want to, why not? But I, but I take it for him. And, and then we were trying to figure out the day to give it to him. And it turned out that the day that we gave it to him was literally the day that Jenna's granddaughter was there. So now, this is where the magic of this organic process. Yes. And so you find these things that you could never plan on in my mind that become great moments in movies. That thread from the original Saqqara seeing the five mummies to giving him the photo, to taking the photo in Egypt.

Christian: So I did remember it was at the same time. Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey Roth: We never planned it that way, nor could we, but it was, it just worked. And so that's, again, these moments that you find where you're trying to do somebody by themselves to make something entertaining, because a lot of times, you know, the dialogue just keeps going, going, going, going, going. You've got to just, okay, how do we get a break from him? Because nobody's going to want to listen to somebody talk for 10 minutes in a row. It just, right? So, So what do you do? You got to interweave. That's what we were trying to do. And everywhere that we did take him, if you've noticed, is not like, okay, let's show up here and let's do a history lesson on King Tut. It's places that he was connected to and that he could talk about. So it wasn't just taking you anywhere for any reason other than it's part of his story. And then of course we were there. I don't know if you saw, but we were there on a, when October 7th happened, we were shooting. Yeah, we were, we were in a, a, a Northern Egypt. And I think when we mapped it out, we were about 140 miles from Gaza on October 7th, shooting with him. And then, oh my God, that's where the problems really start because

Christian: No, I just- I didn't put that together.

Jeffrey Roth: Now hindsight is great. We're here a couple of years later. We understand it didn't really spread into Egypt or anything, but at that time, nobody knows what's going on. And so we had crew that went home. we had to figure out what to do or can we shoot. They were concerned kind of for us that like, okay, because you know, when you're shooting with film crew, you kind of stick out like a sore thumb. so we had to kind of figure things out and, know, he wasn't in a good mood. And I don't mean that he was in a bad mood, but I think it really weighed on him. ⁓ and then that affects what you're trying to get or what you see. so. That day that you saw Jenna there, that's when he came really back to life for us because that's his life. You see it and she's the sweetest thing. But yeah.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. and she just loved his hat, you know, and it was really neat because you then show about, you know, he tells about, you know, why he's called the van and the hat and the whole history of the hat and why the hat is so important. And, you know, it starts with, you know, Jenna telling or him telling the story with Jenna. I thought that was a beautiful way that you wove that in there. It was just great. It stuck.

Jeffrey Roth: It's kind of like his, it's like a Superman cape, you know? He's got like his character's outfit. Once he puts it on, he becomes that being of this Egyptologist that is larger than life.

Christian: Right. Yeah. Now I want to move on since we have a little bit of time left to 41. you know, I, it was particularly special to me because my father was in the Reagan administration. worked in Capitol Hill from the time I was 13 to the time I was 20, I don't know, 23, 24, something like that. And, ⁓ so I was there through the Reagan Bush years and through the Bush Cheney years. And this just reminded me of everything that I lived through. So it was fascinating. And of course, I've never been to Kenning Buckport and I wasn't inside. I only made it into the West Wing offices. I never went into the residence or anything like that. So it was, you had incredible access. I'd love to know how you got all that access. And then I really would like to understand, you you committed years of your life to these subjects and what that's like. Yeah, access, how did you get that? What's it like committing years of your life to telling stories about these people?

Jeffrey Roth: So, okay, so 41, that came about from the wonder of it all, which was the astronaut, the guys that walked on the moon. There was a big screening at his library where we had, I believe it was six of the guys that walked on the moon, but overall we had eight Apollo astronauts at one place because he invited them. Did a big screening and dinner and all that stuff. And I walked out of there thinking, that was great. We'll never do that again. And then, We got invited to Kenny Bunport, Walker's Point, their property, to have lunch. And I was like, okay. And we showed the movie again there. And at that point, we had just finished The Wonder of It All. was trying to figure out what to do next. So I asked the chief of staff. I said, is there any chance that he might be interested? And she's like, no, no. But out of respect and you coming up here, write him something and I'll send it his way. And I said, okay. But I said that I was headed to Australia because the State Department invited me out to show wonder out there as like a cultural exchange. And I said, I'm going to be gone for a couple of weeks and I don't want to come back. She said, sure, no problem. But when I got back, landed, literally turned on the phone, there was an email from her said he's intrigued. I said, okay. But I didn't do anything. And again, was one of those things. That one, six weeks later, from that moment, we were in Kenny Bugport's shooting. Right? So it was quick. And having access with him was, I mean, was, mean, humbling, it's fantastic. It's all these things that you could possibly imagine because you're doing something that you never think that you would do, let alone making a movie about the guy. But he was very, very... just easy going, I'm sure you know this, right? He respected by a lot of people. And if I could tell you one story, which is towards the end of the shooting of that movie, President Obama was giving him the Presidential Medal of Freedom Award. And that's in the movie. I asked if we could shoot that. And they said, probably not, but we'll ask. I said, okay.

Christian: Yeah. you

Jeffrey Roth: So got back to us that the White House is allowing one person with one camera and no audio. So we had to do an onboard mic and I was the camera guy and we got his arrival. He comes in, goes into the China room where at the time, I don't know if they still do this, but at the time, each person that gets the award has to do an interview with the White House for historical purposes.

Christian: Wah.

Jeffrey Roth: And so, you know, I'm in there and I'm kind of at the side and I don't want to let him know I'm there. I don't want anything. And at this point he was in his wheelchair. And, you know, it's his day and all that stuff. But sure enough, he sees me, he points to his assistant to take me over there and he comes over to me and he says, how are you doing? And I was like, sir, this is your day. You know, you don't have to come over here. I'm just trying to be out of your way. But that's just the kind of guy that he was. And, you know, we spent, I'd say just about three years on and off, of course. That was 09 through 2012.

Christian: What years were these? And when did he pass? It was not that long.

Jeffrey Roth: Oh, got... 2018 or 19, I believe? It was right before COVID.

Christian: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't think it was that long before he passed actually, but he looked strong enough. So I knew it was several years before. But I also felt like it was during those years where he started getting very tender and where he was starting to share, you know, how emotional everything was making him, you know, about when he would talk about his family or when he would look back because he was very vulnerable about those things. which made him all the more endearing to me, of course. But yeah, that was very powerful. I loved how you showed how he greeted the White House staff and how much the White House staff loved him. I thought that was really special. ⁓

Jeffrey Roth: Yeah, I tried to, you know... you've seen now, I liked if I can to give a different take or a different look on somebody. Right. So the whole goal here was to take politics out of it. And what is it? To me, the story is the man. It was about a man in his life who happened to become president. And then how do you show the person also with the White House years without going into detail about like policy or this, that, the other, because somebody else either has made that movie or can make that movie. I was strictly more about him. when you see those moments, those are just, it's him, The camera doesn't lie, but, and they came to him too, right? He hadn't been there in how many years? So they respected him, right? So, it's...

Christian: yeah. And I love that they had not forgotten their names. They knew their names. You just could tell that relationship was there. So precious. How did you get him to be so open and relaxed on camera? Did you have to do... anything or was that just him? Because you're close up on him. He's still really relaxed every time you're talking to him, whether he's on the boat or whether he's, you know, in his office or whether he's driving a golf cart, he's very relaxed with you.

Jeffrey Roth: Yeah, the only thing I can say about that is to me, I come as me, right? You've seen me do this now for, we've never met before, right? But I am what I am and this is it. I don't come in like, you know, with a suit tie, hair all slicked up, very formal. I try to be relaxed, right? I try to be this, that and the other, but at the same time, you kind of have to be calculating. You got to figure out like, okay, so if I can interview him for an hour and a half here at this setting, how do you start the interview to get him more to say things that you want and get him relaxed and then get into something else? But also how do you bring somebody back down towards the end of the interview? So they're not walking out of there that they hate you. So you need to come back and you want them to invite you back. Because you know, when you're dealing with somebody of that status, He doesn't have to come back, right? And I even asked him one time, I said, sir, of all the people in Hollywood that you could have had tell your story, why are you allowing me to do it? And he laughed and he just said, ⁓ my chief of staff is making me do it. So I knew I was never gonna get an answer, but I don't know. Sometimes I feel like.

Christian: Ha ha. That's so beautiful. One of the things that I thought was fascinating, you you, you stay away from politics. Always really. The only time you hear any of it is when he starts to talk about his journey in politics. And even then it's more about his journey in the jobs. It's not his political perspective per se until he starts talking about the races that he had to run. and there's the one thing that was funny is when you asked him about Ross Perot, I think you asked him about, and he, he was absolutely adamant that he was not going to talk about Ross Perot, but even more, he said he didn't like him. And that is not George Bush.

Jeffrey Roth: And there's the one moment that he did not look relaxed, right?

Christian: He wasn't, he got very tense. And I just, you realize that if he was that tense on camera, can you imagine how angry or whatever it was? He must really feel, I don't remember what it was, but it was not good. So, but what I did think was interesting is if you look back now, and I've seen a lot of footage actually from the Bush Reagan years. that are so diametrically opposed to what's happening in the Republican Party now. And I was listening to him talk about the CIA and how he had to go up to Capitol Hill and defend against people in Congress who were tearing down the CIA and what was happening in there and how he had to go up there and defend the CIA and the people that were working there and the years of workers that had built up their reputations there. And he talked about that institutional knowledge and just their years of service. And you saw the respect for service workers, just like he saw it as if it was in the military, which it is really, frankly. I'm glad he's not here to see what is happening. I I just imagine his heart would be broken. with what he feels like, you know, or what he said he felt like at that time, and how strongly he felt about how that must be protected. And it was very shocking to me. I have felt in my soul, because that's kind of how I was raised with sort of those thoughts as a Republican at the time. You know, I started feeling like, wait a second, I haven't changed. What's happened? And it's true. And a lot of ways I haven't changed, but the Republican party has changed. And I was able to see that clearly by hearing the president who was a Republican talk about what it was like at the time. So that was interesting watching that now just for me to have some perspective. So I appreciated that it wasn't political per se, but I was able to contrast. then and now, and it gave me a little bit of perspective of sort of what I think I expect the American Revolution of Ken Burns film to be when I watch that. I'm looking forward to that coming out in a few days. And that reminds me, he must have inspired Ken Burns some of your work because there is his fingerprints in your work. Is that true?

Jeffrey Roth: Yeah, he like, I would say so in the fact that he let the, or he tries to let people do the talking even though they're not alive. Right. So, so whether it's, it's the, ⁓ I'm not sure who he's using now, but you know, he was using Peter Coyote for awhile. ⁓

Christian: Mm-hmm. He used Peter Coyote for American Revolution too.

Jeffrey Roth: Yeah. So, so, so to try to get you into a time that we cannot really fathom, for really, ⁓ any different subject, whether it's baseball, whether it's the civil war or this, that, the other, you can't, we don't understand what it was like then, but somehow he can get the words from whatever person and bring it to life. to me gives it that personal touch, which is something, yes, that I try to bring into my films is the personal touch and steer clear of the noise. And, know, the Bush 41, it has nothing to do with how to like Republican, how to hate a Republican, right? It's a human interest story. And at the end of the day, you strip out all the Egyptian stuff. It's a human interest story and the astronauts, it's a human story, right? I'm not, you know, I'm not a science and technology guy with the Apollo program. I'm not ⁓ a political insider. And I'm definitely not an Egyptologist or an archaeologist, but I like to learn about people. And also with the fascination of those different topics, that's how the my two things come together. know, now that I've, it's only hindsight that you can look back and figure out, okay, why did I do this?

Christian: Yeah, yeah, I share that characteristic. Actually, that's why you're here today. I'm interested in what makes people tick and why they do what they do. What I see in your films that is similar and that I love about Ken Burns films is the pacing, sort of the slower pacing, how the music works with the visuals. That's the feeling that I'm talking about that's similar. ⁓ Your films are very visual visually polished and rhythmically tight. I'm wondering how you work with your DP and your editor. Are you a director that shows up with a specific, you know, visual reference cuts in your head or do you prefer to give everybody a lot of room to explore or like who do you take with you? Are you the director and you have everything in your head and you are the editor and you just take some other people to help you do stuff?

Jeffrey Roth: Yeah, well, in that regard, I always like it to be a collaborative art, right? It is a collaborative art in what we do. But that being said, I always look for ⁓ opinions from whoever, but ultimately the final say has to be ⁓ on my end. But I don't want anybody to ever not come to me with an idea because you never know what you could be giving up. And so, but when we do go out and we do shoot, If we have three cameras or four cameras or whatever it is, or you're dealing with a drone or you're dealing with this, whatever, I can't be in every single place sometimes. So sometimes you have to do a little bit of everything of what you just said. Sometimes you can be right there and say, this is what I want. Or you got to pick like, okay, what's important right now? Cause you got an hour here and I got a camera over there, camera over there and he's there. What do I want? So it's a fast moving process. Sometimes you could be sitting around not doing anything for months, but once you get there, you gotta go. And then, and what the editor is the same thing, you know, I like to also give the editor their time to learn the material and see what they come up with and then bounce ideas off of that. And again, if I don't like it, then I will definitely say it. But there's sometimes that I'll say things that they then put really into a visual sense for me. And I look at it, I don't know what I was thinking. So it works both ways. And I do want them to tell me if they don't like it, but tell me why you don't like it. And then I'll make a decision. So, yeah.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Kind of the way I am too. One of the things that really struck me as I was prepping for this interview is that you've done everything right. You've had a successful theater documentary, an HBO film, a CNN acquisition, incredible access to powerful people. And yet, like so many of us, you've still had projects that were, I mean, I'm assuming harder to place than it would be, like not quickly selling to different things. and things have changed. So how, as an artist and a business person right now, as you're trying to sell this film or other ones that you've got in the works, what would you say to filmmakers as they're pouring their hearts into these great works and still struggling to try to get something sold to streamers or things like that?

Jeffrey Roth: ⁓ so the number one thing I think, and I live by this as well is you do what you believe in because you've got to be the one that spends either the year two or three living and breathing the project. And in order to do that, you have to like what you're doing. Otherwise, I believe that the end result will reflect your feeling on what you're doing. You know, what's the saying that they always say a piece of you comes out in your movie. And I didn't understand that until I went through it and I believe in that. What I do is obviously that we fund this ourselves carefully. We do do it so that we can make the project where nobody is telling us what to do, but there's the good and the bad. The good and the bad is I can go off and make what I want, but the bad is at the end of day, I have to still go out and try to sell it, right? I've given up the, really the idea that you're gonna get a big agent and all those things, and ⁓ it's just not gonna happen. because documentaries in themselves don't make a lot of money to where it would be profitable for a William Morris type company, right? Because they're dealing with big packages and this, that, and the other. And so if you're going to do it, you got to do it. and if you're going to take two or three years to do it, the landscape can change. Right? So, so whatever you think is good, like, you know, if you're making a movie about a certain thing and then like say a Me Too movement comes out, well, that nobody may want to look at your movie, depending on what it is or who's in the Oval Office, this, this, this go. So there are some things that are out of your hand that you can never plan on, but circumstances in the world may dictate if somebody's willing to look or not look at somebody's movie. So I just try to make it on what I can do. And when I started in 20, I want to say Wonder was 2007 or 20, you know, the best place to go for a documentary was theatrical when that was still going on. And then if you went straight to DVD, you were considered a failure. And then when I got into 41, the top of the heap then was really HBO with Sheila Nevins and And then as streaming was started, if you went straight to streaming, because remember Netflix had that the red envelope for independent filmmakers, paid for a little bit of money to help build their library, then you were considered a failure. So now if you look at HBO, I mean, look, my opinion, but HBO is different now, right? Because of the companies that have bought this and bought that. So they look for different things. now,

Christian: Yep.

Jeffrey Roth: You are successful if you go streaming. Because that's really where else are you gonna go these days. Theatricals may or may not happen and if they do, generally you do it because they're going for Oscar consideration to rent LA and New York and play the week or two or whatever the rules are. So I've just kind of picked a lane and stayed in it and not try to worry too much but. It's not easy. mean, it just is not. You could see the movie and like the movie. That's great. But what we go through, you know this, and nobody will ask you, what is your process? Right? Or like you get a reviewer and then you get all upset because somebody wrote something about this. They see your movie for maybe an hour and a half, then want to tear you down with ever asking the filmmaker, anybody, what did you go through? Asking you, why did you make it like this? Right? So they're judging you without understanding anything. And that I have a hard time with.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't see a lot to judge here other than a lot of good things. What I see is an industry that is struggling to make space for independent filmmakers. And I see it for independent filmmakers. I think you're very fortunate to be able to make your documentaries on your own dime. I'm not able to do that. I am stuck, you know, halfway with a film that's now looking for finishing funds. And I don't have them. And it's a great movie. you know, the first film that I did is making money, but it's not making enough money to be able to invest in this next movie. And that's not uncommon. Yeah.

Jeffrey Roth: No, and we go through that too. We do. And I don't want anybody to think like we just have oodles of money over here. Because like you say, it is not easy. You've got to scrutinize everything on the budget. How much is this flight? How much is the one stop? How much is the two stop? Can you save money here? How do you save money there? We go through that like anybody in independent filmmaking. And when you get to finishing, you got to make a deal with somebody. It's like, oh, Lord. Everything is just a struggle.

Christian: It really is. Well, I have a whole bunch of other questions for you, but we unfortunately are running out of time. You have been a fabulous guest. I appreciate your sharing your wisdom with me. We do have one more section I want to get thrown in here. It's everybody's favorite section. We call it DocuVue Deja Vu. And what we'd like you to do is share a favorite documentary that you think our audience should watch.

Jeffrey Roth: boy, can I? Can I hold you there for a moment? I literally am blanking on the name of the document. It was the Robert Evans documentary.

Christian: You can look it up on IMDB.

Jeffrey Roth: Can I Google? Yeah, yeah, OK. I see it and everything but my god. the kid stays in the picture.

Christian: Is that the name of it?

Jeffrey Roth: I believe so. I'm gonna look that up. stays in the picture. It's older for sure, but I don't know if he ever saw it. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it was a 2002 and then,

Christian: You like baseball. You like baseball.

Jeffrey Roth: I do.

Christian: Where's that seat from?

Jeffrey Roth: That is from the Dodgers, Dodger Stadium. Yeah. What's that way? What can I say? I mean, you can't see. Can I move the camera for a sec? All right.

Christian: Dodgers? You're a Dodgers fan? You live in LA? I'm in Chicago, so I don't like the Dodgers.

Jeffrey Roth: That's okay. I'm going to show you something.

Christian: Who is signed?

Jeffrey Roth: On that, that was the ⁓ sort of the famous Dodger Enfield of Bill Russell, Davy Lopes, Tommy Lasorda, Ron Sains, Steve Carly.

Christian: my goodness. I have respect. I don't like the Dodgers, but I have respect.

Jeffrey Roth: No, that was more the, that's where my heart is with those players than today's players. I don't think you can see this, but this is also hanging up there, but you don't see.

Christian: Yeah. Yeah. That's you gotta he gave you a tie

Jeffrey Roth: Well, actually there you see him. God. That. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's taking the picture, but basically when we were coming out with that movie, we were doing a screening down in.

Christian: I can't tell, describe. I see you and he's wearing a tie. I see a picture of a camera. Take a picture of that and text it to me.

Jeffrey Roth: Okay, so he, we were doing a photo shoot, publicity stuff. And so his assistant comes up to me and says, here, he got you a gift. ⁓ And I said, okay, great. I kind of put it down. He says, no, no, no, you don't understand. You got to open that right now. And I said, okay. So I opened it up and it was the time. And then he says, it over. And he said, it was imported 41. And he says, he says, President Bush, only made two of those and he's wearing the other one right now. And so, so then we took the pictures with them. And then when he passed, and I had never worn this. And when he had passed away, we were invited to the funeral, but on it, the one that was down in college station and USA Today had asked me to write an article on my time with him. And I ended it with. telling this story, but I'm saying, but I said there's only one time that I'll wear this tie and I'll never wear it again. And that'll be, I think it was like on Tuesday, cause that was his funeral. So I wore it at his funeral and then I put it in this case and then I'll never wear it again. But, but.

Christian: ⁓ man, I mean that is just so, so special. You know, one of the things that I love about your documentary and what I hate about politics is that you never until after the president's leave office, you know, do ever get to see the people. You know, it's what I feel about Jimmy Carter. Like Jimmy Carter was so misunderstood. Same about Ford, same about Barack Obama. You know, there was just so much about them that was misunderstood. and not really known. And some people, when they were in office, saw that side of them, probably those that knew them before they ran, you know, and they stuck with them through everything. you know, the thing about George Bush is he was always the same from the time he was a child till the time that he died. And you can see that in his family, you know, how his parents were and how

Jeffrey Roth: think it's pretty good. given.

Christian: you know, through his whole family life and how that thread has woven through that family. It's beautiful. It's, are so blessed that you had that time with them and how much respect he had for you. Clearly that gift, think, shows how much he appreciated what you did for him in sharing his story and the respect for his family and his work.

Jeffrey Roth: He wrote me a letter after and... You know, I'll never say what he wrote, but it was ⁓ pretty special, you know, and he didn't have to do that. I don't do these things for them to, you know. praise or not praise or whatever it is, I do it because it's what I want to do and I like the subject, right? But then the personal stuff comes along with it and it is, those are the moments that are the most fulfilling when you go through this whole process.

Christian: I would agree. I just came back from being in New Orleans with a veteran that was in my film and he's 102, C.O. Bauer. And I've now, he's shocked when I told him this, but I've now been with him since he was 95. And he just can't believe that he'll be 103 in May. So it'll be eight years that we've been friends. And now his family is like my family. And he invited me to New Orleans to be with him. and we just have become so close and he'll say, we're getting our message out. So his message has become our message. And it's such, I feel so honored. I've learned so much from him. And, you know, in a sense, when I was watching your movie that, you know, George Bush is a veteran and you can see that, that

Jeffrey Roth: Thanks.

Christian: that runs through him, through and through that veteran mindset of what he did for his country and what it meant to fight for his country and his feelings of when the country was attacked. And when you've spent any time with our veterans from that time period, it changed them. And that is just what I love, spending time with these people that have lived through that time period, because it touches me and is imprinted on me. I just have such respect. And so you were...

Jeffrey Roth: And they have such different perspective on life, how things should go. And if you ever see a president in waiting, know...

Christian: Yes. I'm next. That's next. I'm going to watch it next.

Jeffrey Roth: But I've got, imagine this, right? So I have four pairings of presidents and vice presidents that I'm putting into this movie to not really talk about politics, right? But it's the relationship between a president and vice president. And at the end of the day, people will ask me, they'll like, well, who's your favorite? And I'm like, well, it's kind of like your kids, kind of like each one for different reasons. Or somebody wants to bitch and moan, you got Cheney. Or on the other side, ⁓ You interviewed Clinton, it's like, listen, here's what I say. If you were in a bar with any one of these guys and you didn't know their name and you just sat down and had a beer with them, you like them. It gets all filtered down through media and all that crap and then you never get to understand or learn about the person.

Christian: Well, I think in this time where you have a different president and all of them have come together to sort of stand in a different way, in a different light, casting a different light in the presidency and against, you know, in for America in a different light. You see them all differently. I mean, they are all together and unified and laughing and. You they're, you know, just, can see George Bush and Michelle Obama are close and you just see the friendships there and you can tell there's camaraderie and they really are different people, I think, when they were younger, but you can see a different side of them. And yeah, I see what you're talking about. You have been very blessed to have had those opportunities with those people and to know them for sure.

Jeffrey Roth: ⁓ and, I, I humbly, I, I know that, how we've been able to do that. I don't know. I I still wonder how we got it, but yeah, no, mean, in my perspective has changed too, you know, ⁓ because of getting to spend time with these guys or anything, it's just, you realize really what's important and what's not. And, ⁓ yeah, so sorry for the lor-

Christian: Yeah. your work for yourself. Yeah, for sure. Okay, that's all right. Now we are going to go into everybody's favorite section, docu-view deja vu. All right, tell us what documentary you want to share with our audience that you think everybody should see.

Jeffrey Roth: Okay, so I'm going to pick an older one, which was called The Kid Stays in the Picture. And it was Robert Evans. He's not in it, but his voice is in it. And the way they shot it, was very... The way they used the camera for the documentary, the way they used the colors, it was more of using film tools in a time when I don't think really documentaries were coming across as more of ⁓ film look. And it was just different. the way they created, I believe, the way they use the photos, there was a process in which even today they call it the kid stays in the picture effect. so that would be my selection because that one has generally stuck with me ⁓ for 23 years, than most. So ⁓ that's my selection.

Christian: All right, that's interesting. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that recommendation. And thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your experience with us. It's been lovely getting to know you. Thank you for making your films known to our audience. I'm just super excited that I've now discovered them and just lovely to meet you. I've been touched by your work and learned a few things myself. So I do hope that you'll come back when your next picture is ready. And I wish you all the best. with this. I will tell you your experience with Virgil Films is going to be top-notch. I have just loved my relationship with them. So you will be blessed.

Jeffrey Roth: Well thanks, it's been wonderful. I appreciate the time.

Christian: Yeah. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to Documentary First, where we believe everybody has a story to tell, and you can be the one to tell it. Bye, everybody.